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Author Topic: Would like to see some objective info on fuel additives!  (Read 2681 times)
Busted Knuckle
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« on: January 10, 2011, 10:19:05 PM »

OK so I noticed a thread that mentions fuel additives. I for one who pays outrageous amounts of $ per yer for buses, maintenance, oil & FUEL would be interested in hearing and seeing some PROS & Cons for fuel additives!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2011, 11:14:34 PM »

BK
I have been driving diesel pickups all my life and I use additives. In my 2009 chevy diesel I use two cycle oil mixed at 100 to 1 plus 8 OZ of Stanadyne for the cetane improvement. It really helps quiet it down, and on it I go from 20mpg hwy to 21 hwy. I also have a Edge monitor and I can watch the injector balance rates go from all over the place to 0. I also used the same ratio with my bus, but driving from Idaho to Alaska I didn't notice mpg change. But at 6.5 mpg thats not a supprise. I also run this mix in my dozer and all my Diesels and have never had injector problems. Alaska does not use any biodiesel blend but down south they do. Bio blend is the best for lube but doesn't have the added cetane, kinda like octane in gas. (mo power)
There is a good write up in the dieselplace forum under( lubricity additive study)
FWIW
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« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2011, 11:56:23 PM »

Also a warning
Do not run a mix like this in a 2007 or later Diesel engine.
Unless you are like me and hit a big bump and all the emissions stuff falls off Grin
Gary
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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 04:23:41 AM »

In Chicago if you use nothing you are going to jell up it will only be a matter of time.


A good percentage of #1 fuel was always my first choice at least you got some volume and miles out of the product verses using quarts of the snake oil products. There were times I ran a 50/50 blend when it got very cold

I ran a 3406B cat for years and it was like any other diesel motor UNTIL ultra low sulfur fuel that first year it jelled up 4 or 5 times big big change the motor did not like it at all. Never left the barn w/o spare filters.

My kabota gen also will no longer run smoothly in any temps on ultra low sulfur fuel. Now I use additives in every tank all year and the gen has not skipped a beat since.

As far as additives I have not seen much difference in performance between them I get the best price.

We create a microclimate with our engines in the rear and our tanks are protected unlike a truck where they get much colder and it probably makes it harder for them and fuel to gel but I still would never go a winter without being very certain I have enough poured in.
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brando4905
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 05:05:34 AM »

I'd love to hear more on this subject as well BK. After just having an inframe rebuild on my 8v71, the first thing my mechanic asked me when I picked the bus up was if I was using fuel additives. He strongly advised using something with extra cetane and sulphur, stating these old DDs didn't like the new fuel.

For some reason since i've owned the bus, I have not added anything to the fuel. I used to always purchase Power Service products for the smaller diesels I had, but just didn't think the bus needed it. What do others recommend?

Brandon
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 05:59:13 AM »

My bus had been stored with a full tank of fuel the first week of October.  I didn't know if they were doing any winter diesel at that point so I added some Howe's to the tank to prevent gelling for my trip to Arcadia.  I didn't seem to see any improvement in MPG or driveability, but maybe my MPG would have been even lower without the additive.  I only got around 7.6 MPG on the first tank of diesel for my trip.
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 06:04:24 AM »

Bryce, are you talking stuff for anti gel...or all of the snake oil additives out there that claim to clean injectors, clean the oil, cut down on water in the fuel and make your poop clean!?

As for anti gel...I always used about 5 gallons kerosene per 100 gallon of diesel if I wasn't sure the fuel was blended for the climate I was running in.  Now sometimes that means leaving NC and getting up into the midwest where it was colder and topping off with some blended fuel.

As for the other crap...I feel it is just that...crap.
Our shop guy NEVER uses any, we have about 250 trucks with all kinds of motors running all over the country.  He said if Detroit, Cat, , Volvo, and Cummins thought it was needed they would recommend it.
Besides...look at the fuel you are pumping...it is clear as gin!
And no, the Ultra Low Sulfur, (ULS) fuel has not caused our seals and gaskets to leak, or motors to blow, or any of the crap everone said it would!

That's my two cents...and I know I will be flamed for a lot of my comments...hey...I'm a big boy...and I put my big boy panties on this morning!
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 06:28:34 AM »

OK just for the record. Back when I was towing I used to use "Power Service" in the winter. And if I was caught out somewhere & didn't have any "Power Service" available I did like Jack and added kerosene, only a little stronger. (this was back when I drove "big" wreckers, and we needed to be sure we didn't end up being the one needing the "hook") In extreme cases if it got extremely cold, or if I couldn't find kerosene easily I would add 5 gals unleaded gas to 100-150 gallons of fuel. NEVER HAD A PROBLEM doing it this way!
(I got caught by surprise in Canada once after driving all day/night to get to our customer and hooking up and heading back out the truck started losing power and surging. I thought to myself "Oh crap this ain't good" and there was no place in sight to get "winter blend fuel" or kerosene. So I stopped in a service station and asked the "old timer" working there where I could get some "Power Service" or blended fuel this time of night. He just looked at me and said about 50 kilometers away. Just as I said crap and headed out the door he said "Hey we always use plain old gasoline!" I thought to my self "yeah right and blow this thing up before I ever get back across the border, sure buddy!"
But he insisted everybody 'round here does it. Just put about 5 gallons of gas in 100 gallons of fuel & you got "winter blend."   Well I tried it and as I was putting the cap back on the fuel tank the engine started smoothing out and picking up rpms! I made it home to KY the next day no problems!)

Now days I still use Howe's when it get's real cold out or if a bus is headed north in the winter, but for the most part, I don't add anything.

But the other day I was talking to someone that made some good points about "low quality fuel" these days and the benefits of cetane raising additives. And it got me thinking and I really would like to know more about it's use, benefits vs costs and etc.

Info on anti-gelling is good too, but I pretty much keep Howe's on hand for that and always make sure there is a jug or 2 on any bus headed north and tell the drivers "if it's below freezing add this to the tank & top it off with fuel, then let it run a good hour before shutting down!"
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 06:57:03 AM »

All our fuel in Canada is winter blended and we don't have to use any snake oil.

Now if I filled up say in Arizona this time of year and was headed back this way, I guess it wouldn't really be a concern either because I would be filling up every day on the way up with an increasing concentration of anti gell agent blended at the retailer's pump.

I run the hockey team's bus all winter without additives and without problems.

JC
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JC
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luvrbus
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 07:44:10 AM »

Everything I have been told by people that make the stuff like Sun Oil the new diesel fuel is good to 0 with nothing,if I had a common rail fuel system like on the newer engines I don't think the stuff would ever gel have you ever touched a fuel tank on the newer trucks they will burn you even with a fuel cooler


good luck
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 07:49:44 AM »

Interesting thread.  This has been discussed before and there always seems to be strong opposing views.

I try to keep an open mind.  Here is my story.  

In the mid '70s we wanted to test some VW diesel  engines to develop a camshaft belt (diesel engines are very tough on all belts, but camshaft belts in particular).  We tried to buy the engines direct, but it turned out that the only way to get the engines was to buy the cars (at $500 over list - big demand because of the fuel shortage).  I managed the test lab at the time and did a little "rank has privileges" thing and made the decision that we should drive the cars for 1,000 miles to make sure there were no issues (really wanted to play with them Roll Eyes).  Each night I would drive one of them home (30 miles, 2500 ft altitude gain).  Two of the cars ran great, but the third was a real dog.  I took it back to the dealer to have it repaired.  His reply was to add a certain additive (don't recall which brand) and it would clear up in one tank of fuel.  I told him I did not have time to waste, as we were scheduled to remove the engines in a couple of weeks.  He said that he would not work on the car until I tried the additive.  

I was 99% sure that the "snake oil" would not do the job.  Well, you can guess the results.  

One stretch of the drive home is what I call my "dynamometer".  It is a long steep "hill" that really sorts out engine performance (killed my 6V92 Angry).  To give you an idea a good friend came to visit us with an Eagle/8V71.  He was down to 5 MPH in parts of the trip!!  I can quickly detect changes in performance by looking at MPH in certain areas of the canyon.

In less than one tank it ran exactly the same as the other engines.

I still feel that most of the stuff on the market is great at generating profits for the manufacturer and not much else, but I always think of the above story and have to do a double-think.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 07:55:10 AM »

With the exception of an anti-gel product...

The big fleets have lots of money, lots of testing, same with the fuel companies, and especially the engine manufacturers times 10 ....

If any of this stuff worked, it would be already in the fuel, or we'd all know about it via the trade press and instructions in the owners manuals.

Choose the anti-gel of your choice, mix it to PROPER RATIO, leave the rest on the shelf.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 08:23:38 AM »

As I thought more about this subject, it dawned on me that we should probably break the characteristics down into bite size items we can deal with.

Gelling.  Most agree that we could need some sort of additive if we get caught in really cold weather with so-called summer blended fuel.  As has been pointed out, there are lots of approaches.  Also as pointed out, our tanks are usually protected and often exposed to the warm bay.  Our engines bypass a lot of fuel and the fuel temperature will rise as we drive.  The big problem is getting the engine started

Lubricity.  When low sulfur and then ultra-low sulfur fuels came out there was all kinds of terrible predictions of fuel pump and injector problems.  That never turned out to be a significant problem

Injector cleaning.  Per my story above, I have mixed thoughts on this one.  One additive really made a difference in our VW engine.

cetane rating.  If you believe what you read, those additives that boost cetane, will give you better performance and/or fuel mileage.  I have not seen any objective test data by a independent test lab that verifies the claims. 

Not sure whether this make the subject better or worse Cheesy

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 08:33:39 AM »

Here's an article on the subject that I found to be interesting--

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/ford/0911dp_fuel_additive_test/index.html

A one or two mpg gain could help some of us if this is true.

Brandon
« Last Edit: January 11, 2011, 08:35:35 AM by brando4905 » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 09:54:04 AM »

http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/showthread.php?t=177728
This site also has a study and it is very good.
If you use an additive like I do. Do some homework and use one that is a "demulsifier" this separates the water from the fuel and your racor will catch it. If you use additive like power service WHT bottle this is a emulsifier "blends water with fuel" and passes through your system. You know as well as I do that water under pressure is like sandpaper not good on injectors. On my common rail Diesel the injectors run approx
27,000 psi. Water is very bad for injectors at that psi... As far as lubricity goes make your own choice. Diesel engines pre 1994 have seals that were designed for high sulfur. After that they use a synthetic seal that holds up better. Also lube=btu and btu=hp. Like I said earlier I can monitor my injectors and I get results with lube.... In Alaska our fuel has a lot of kerosene and kerosene has very little lube like jet- A
But that is what has to be done to prevent gelling in the winter. The reason Diesel engine manufacturers don't recommend using it is new diesels have a DPF (Diesel particulate filter) this will plug if lube is used.
Also most lubes don't meet today's emissions. I personally will use good lube and cetane booster.
FWIW
Gary
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 01:05:51 PM »

Quote
The big fleets have lots of money, lots of testing, same with the fuel companies, and especially the engine manufacturers times 10 ....

If any of this stuff worked, it would be already in the fuel, or we'd all know about it via the trade press and instructions in the owners manuals.

Choose the anti-gel of your choice, mix it to PROPER RATIO, leave the rest on the shelf.


Since I cannot say it any better, I will just have to agree with BW.
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 02:30:46 PM »

OK so I noticed a thread that mentions fuel additives. I for one who pays outrageous amounts of $ per yer for buses, maintenance, oil & FUEL would be interested in hearing and seeing some PROS & Cons for fuel additives!
  BK 
Just thought I'd give my thoughts FWIW
I also would like to here from diesel only shops in northern states that don't use bioblend at the pump.
And maybe even over the road truckers with millions of miles in northern states with older diesels. Ultimately they would know the end result.
I've been wondering and researching for years myself.
Gary
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Gary Seay (location Alaska)
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Don Fairchild
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »

Lets see if I can add to this with out sounding like I am talking out of my backside.

back when fuel was the real thing and btu's were 145,000-147,000 per gallon burned we could get by with just about anything. Now that big brother has become involved the btu's have gone down to 131,000-133,000 per gallon burned. You have heard and will continue to hear that sulfur is not a lubricant and that is true. The thing that gets over looked is when they strip the sulfur from the fuel it also pulls out the lubricity. I don,t think you can get anything that will restore the BTU's but can increase the cetane # and add to the lubricity. My thoughts are that if you can add a cetane boost, lubricity additive and some type of anti gelling product you will be ok, and you should get better startability in the colder climates. I have used power service and amsoil products for several years and have not seen any adverse affects. I want my engine and all it parts to last as long as possible. I believe that one of the places that lack of lubrication from the fuel shows up in the injectors don't last as long as they should.

In July when we went back to Texas to test engines we found that injector wear and longevity became an issue. we tested a few additives with out any clear cut results.

I no this doesent help but that is my take on it.

Don
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 04:27:15 PM »



    The "Quality" of  crude isn't the same as it was 20-30 yrs ago. Differant type of crudes produce , differant Natural Cetane

    numbers. Therefor, additives mainly 2-EYTHL- HEXL NITRATE  comes into play. This is added at the refinery for combustion of

    towoll oil, (what becomes diesel fuel). The higher the PTB'S, pounds per thousand barrels of 2-E-H-N.  For instances,

    650 LB of 2-E-H-N in  42,000 gal's or 1000 barrels (barrel is 42 gal) the national average of today's fuel is 42.5 cetane numbers.

    47 numbers represents premium fuel.  650 LB added to that number will give you 47 plus cetane numbers. 550, 450, 350, etc.

    you do the mathematics, will give you the fuel number.  I hope this doesn't confuse anyone.

   
   Steve 5B..

 
 

     

 
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 04:38:26 PM »

Don,
You nailed it!!
Since the oil companies and Diesel engine manufactures have to meet big brother's rules, they can only do what they can to make the government happy. After lots of problems with engines Catipillar quit building over the road motors. And also pay attention to the fuel station you buy fuel from. Here in Alaska I have seen some of them pour emulsifiers in their tanks. This is a win win for them. They don't have to clean the water out of their tanks, and they sell water. So only buy from reputable stations.
Just some more thoughts
Gary
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Gary Seay (location Alaska)
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 05:42:59 PM »



  I forgot to mention in my last post, Cetane products are tested in a "CETANE ENGINE" designed for diesel fuel testing.  Fuels

  will very depending on the state of crude and where it comes from. Differant levels will have higher or lower  natural cetane

  numbers.  Southwest engineering institute located in the Dallas is where a lot of fuels are tested.  A full diesel fuel cetane

   test will run  $1,500 -$2,200 per test! Get the chance look up CETANE ENGINE on the net, some good info.


   Steve 5B.....
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 07:34:36 PM »

I'm new here and don't as yet have a bus, but I'm looking. I do however drive a semi 48 states and it currently has over a million miles on it. I never used to add anything to the fuel, unless I was, say going from Fl to WI in the winter. (did that once, it was 99 degrees colder in WI) Today's ULS fuel seems to pick up moisture faster and seems to be dirtier. I don't really have a gelling problem, the fuel gets ice crystals in it that will plug up a filter. I also can't get much over 15000 miles on a filter without loosing power. I now use fuel additive in every fill up if the temp is going to be 20 degrees or below. Changing a fuel filter when it's below zero is no fun. Fuel mileage is down about 1 mpg in the summer and almost 2 in the winter with ULS.
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 08:01:25 PM »

The little white crystals in your fuel filter is probably paraffin (wax)
this is very common in fuels with bioblend and that is the side affect.
Additives usually don't help much there. Probably got some 5 or 10% bioblend
down south.

Gary
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 08:18:43 PM »

The refining process on ULSD fuel to remove the sulfur is a complicated process that add to the price I was told at Sun they use Hydrogen Gas to remove the sulfur then they refine the hydrogen sulfide from the diesel if not refined good I can see where ice crystals would be a problem.
 I don't believe sulphur adds to the BTU of diesel any of you guy know for sure I am not good with the Google thing.
At Sun I built a new wax plant for the new diesel fuels for what purpose I have no idea unless the wax is removed during the process then added somewhere down the line the plant was built before the new fuels were mandated so they knew what was coming I guess   


good luck
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« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2011, 08:27:38 PM »

Could be wax, but the crystals aren't white. They are more clear like ice. Whatever they are additive seems to keep them away.
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