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Author Topic: MCI 9 questions  (Read 7679 times)
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« on: January 11, 2011, 12:15:07 AM »

  Its really not what I think I want, they're kinda big, but these things are everywhere you look, and location and parts availability do mean something. Anyway, a local guy has one, its a 5 speed manual with 6V92T, he claims it has a broken crank.

  As always, any advice or knowledge is appreciated. I been looking around at other MCI-9's on the web, actual runners are much more than I could get this one for, so the money saved could go directly back into a fresh'ish motor and a chassis service, etc., and I could keep the S&S in the meantime until the Bus is converted. But im not real excited about the 92's from everything ive read. What about a 671T with that 7 speed trans???
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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2011, 03:55:10 AM »

Well, The MCI MC9 is rabidly popular as a conversion and a tough workhorse as a seated coach back in the 1980's. I can almost say with positive resolve that the 6-71 was never offered in the MC9. The 8v-71, 6v-92, and 8v-92 were offered with manual or automatic transmissions. All three of those engines and ALLISON 740 are well proven and had been around forever.
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« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2011, 05:34:19 AM »

I think MC-9's are a good choice.  There are more of them than any other bus in that age bracket, which says something for popularity when new.  I have it's little sister, MC-5C.  Lots of stainless steel in the lower chassis but not above, so rust can still be an issue.  Known problems with air beams, etc, but overall it's a solid fairly modern bus and I still see them in service down in the Maritimes.

The thing about the 6V92, or any 92 series at this point, is it's either rebuilt or needs to be, and the work has or is being done by people at the end of the bus' useful life so no money being spent on factory fresh rebuilds.  Things are being skimped on, done on the cheap.  I think the 92 series, with wet liners, is more susceptible to a bad rebuild than a 71 series.  Add to that the possibility of having to run an early DDEC version and  I think they can be harder and more expensive to run.  If you are doing a repower an 8V71T can be a good choice (it's what I am installing in my bus so I obviously think it's a good idea...)

For me, a non-running MC-9 of uncertain maintenance, a broken crank, and still seated, or not converted in any way, is worth basically nothing more than scrap value.  Sorry to say that, but I wouldn't have one if it was free.  A sweet running (as in starts, runs, and uses less than a gallon of oil every 1500 miles), decently maintained (as in the suspension stays up overnight, and the brakes have linings and don't lock up randomly due to fluctuating air pressure) one would be a good start to something.

Brian

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« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2011, 06:29:04 AM »

would not pay more than scrap value  with bad motor in today's market: Scrap value as unit around 2500$:unless it is already converted.All kind of other variables like age of tires and pristine body would effect price.Broken crank puts a big question if it still has many usable parts for rebuilding economically.  Bob
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« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2011, 06:34:56 AM »

I would not want to have a motor hanging over my head from the start. You will have enough to do just getting it converted and who knows what else is wrong. I would think this bus should be free to you or maybe the owner should pay you to take it. With out a working motor you don't know what else is wrong.

Just my opinion

John
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« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2011, 06:39:01 AM »

Brian, & Bob,
I agree with both of you on a non-running MC9. (to a certain degree)
The MC9 was/is the longest running work horse in the industry bar none! But it is old, and if it has a bad crank, not work a lot.
I'd say not more than $1000. I have a 102A3 (has broken frame, not worth fixing) that I got quoted twice in the past week that as scrap they'd give me $700 and they'd come get it or they'd give me $1000 for it if I brought it to them!
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« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2011, 09:26:05 AM »

  Thanks guys, thats the kind of knowledge I was looking for. Ive been reading and researching, and the 92's really dont have a good track record lately, just seem way to many coming unglued out on the road and guys facing $10K plus to get back on the road.  If I have to spend $10K, I would rather spend it on parts here in my driveway rather than padding someones pocket for labor out in the middle of nowhere. Not saying I wouldnt consider a 92, I just would want it fresh. The reason I mentioned the 6V71T, was I believe its a simpler, more reliable engine starting out, and probably cheaper to aquire.

  I do understand the horrors I could face buying a non runner, but if I can get it cheap enough it wouldnt really matter in the bigger scheme of things, or it could be a parts bus. I do have 40 acres, its not like it would be in my way.

  If the engine is out, I have transmission choices. Using what the Bus already has, set up as a manual, what would be the simplest transmissions to hook up? Am I wrong believing the 7 speed would "just hook up"??
 
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« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2011, 09:54:28 AM »

Can you tell us what is problem with a 6v92 Greyhound ran the socks of those engines for years,not uncommon to see 6v92 with 300,000 + miles still going strong fwiw I have a friend in Mesa that ran the 6v92 in his Eagles (14) and used 15/40 and the 1st one to fail had over 400,000 the guys at WW WIlliams laughed and told him the 15/40 did it in


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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2011, 10:00:50 AM »

I think it's perception, not reality that the V92 has more of a reliability issue than a V71.  I do agree that the V71's are perhaps a little simpler, but probably the reason people notice the V92's having problems is that more people are running them these days, and so they get talked about a little more.

I'm not sure a 6V71T would be getting enough horsepower to make a person with an MC-9 happy.  I think that bus would be happiest with around 350 hp. or more.

Brian
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2011, 10:07:04 AM »

I have been driving the 7 speed Eaton-Fuller for several years on the hockey team's bus. (MCI 102D3, DD S60, 12.7L). In many ways it is a great transmission. Low gear is really low and gets the bus going up a cliff at idle. Then you can keep the engine in its sweet spot (1200 to 1800 rpm) at any speed. 65 mph at about 1500 rpm IIRC. It is built tough. I change the oil in it every 30000 miles or so.

That said, it is not easy to shift. I can do it nice and sweet when I am fresh and rested. You can hear more grinding on the way home from a game in the middle of the night when I am tired and sleepy, and the movie is on loud and I have ear plugs in.

The clutch would be a concern if your leg/knee went bad.

The clutch brake is great. You can take it out of gear at a red light, and put it into 1st when it turns green without any grinding.

I love the Allison HT740 in my 5C conversion SOOO much....

The 92 series is a great engine if it is in good shape  and maintained.

JC  
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2011, 10:52:00 AM »

The 6V-72 may have been good in transits years agao but in an over the road coach nowadays, it would be slower than on old man on a tricycle riding up hill on ice. We had many GM "Fishbowls" here in Milwaukee at one time and they were very underpowered to say the least.
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« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2011, 10:55:14 AM »

I had the opportunity a few months ago to buy a nice looking 102C3 seated coach for just the towing and storage fees which were only about $3500 but turned it down. The 8V92 had been overheated and torn apart and the tires were all slick. I knew by the time I spent all the $$ on having the engine rebuilt and tires replaced that it would not have been worth it to me. I would much more prefer to buy a runner..

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« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2011, 11:53:37 AM »

Brian I agree that 92's are getting a bad rap "lately" but not necessarily because more people are running them. But more likely more people are RUINING them! It takes a driver with knowledge & patience to drive & maintain these old work horses and many just don't have it!

With the 4 strokes having been out and around for so long many people don't understand the importance of not lugging / overheating the 2 strokes because many haven't been around the 2 strokes enough. They think that you just mash the gas and go (which is what they see modern drivers do with modern engines!)

I have had drivers who never had been around 2 strokes before working for me and just couldn't get the hang of a 2 stroke because they'd only driven 60 series or similar and the harder they mashed it the better it went. Our oldest bus has a 6V92 in it and you have to feather the pedal just right to "hit the sweet spot" and she will hum right on down the road all day long @ 70-80 mph with the other buses. But if you try to drive it like a 60 series yer gonna get mad "because it just sucks and has no power & won't go!" (as I've heard driver after driver tell me, then after they find that spot they say "wow this ol' bus is SWEET, it'll out run those other buses as long as there ain't no big hills!")

So it ain't the engines, it's more likely the driver skills or lack of that kill these engines.

I agree totally with Clifford these ol' engines been many a mile for hound and others!
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« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2011, 01:06:04 PM »

  Heres the deal guys. I have been on here since august, and lurking long before that, and been reading various forums long before that. I have read the stuff many of you have written.

  But just focusing on only the last 6 months, I cant recall the number of owners who have had their 92 blow on them out on the road, but there have been a few and they were not cheap. Yet I cant recall a single 71 series. Not one. By many of these members own testimony, the 92 cannot handle an overheat. IIRC, several here claimed anything over 210F is fatal to that engine.

  OTOH, everyone for years has sang the virtues and praises of the 71's indestructability, with the inline 671 being honored with probably the greatest longevity and reliability, although underpowered. In addition, many have claimed to be able to keep chugging down the road with a 71 after an issue developed, a blown head gasket or a cracked head, just keep topping it off with coolant, but most all of you agreed that would burn up a 92 immediately.

  That all said, I do realise the 92 is more than capable of several hundred thousands of miles after a "quality" overhaul with "quality" parts and proper maintenence. How many of those are out there? I dont know, but I have seen a lot of 92 series powered buses for sale that dont run. I admit there are a lot around, and you see a lot more problems the more of something that exists, but this is simply my observation. 

  However, if I am dumb enough to consider this Bus, and I probably am if the price is right, I would consider repairing the current engine "if" its salvageable. But if its not, I would most likely look for a 6V71T, and sacrifice a little power for a bit more percieved reliability. I think a few missed the "T" part, I doubt myself if a NA 6-71 could move a -9 around very spritely. A good aftercooler could bring a 6-71T up to where it may not even have a noticeable power loss over the 6-92T.

  Is that a fair description of these engines, or am I still missing something somewhere?

  Also, I have not changed my attitude about fuel economy, its important to me. Almost more than reliability. When I first came on here, I argued that fuel costs were likely going to rise in the not so near future, and that $5 gallon would not be out of the question. Now we have actual testimony off the news claiming we could see fuel "over" $5 by late 2012. Y'all can argue how unimportant it is, but at $5 gallon there are going to be a lot of Busses parked, many simply will no longer be able to justify driving them. There just is no sense in building a hot rod bus today. If I

  My main interest is making a few trips per year of about 1500 miles round trip length. If I can hit "around" 8 mpg, that isnt going to hurt to bad. Especially if I can slip in an auxilliary tank to carry enough capacity so I wont have to stop. I could top it off at my liesure when its parked and not have to fork out for fuel away from home. The biggest problem with the -9 is its big and heavy. But its not "that" heavy, looks to be about 24K pounds stripped. The challenge would be to keep the weight down to a bare minimum, having as efficient an engine and gearbox as I can reasonably afford, and keeping my foot out of it.   
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« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2011, 01:21:52 PM »

I am not saying you won't get 8 mpg but my 6 v92 won't out here.

John
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« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2011, 01:25:47 PM »

Art,

I'm no engine expert, but with a 6V71T in a MCI9 your foot would be way to far in the accelerator all the time to achieve 8mpgs. I don't think there is enough power in one of those for that bus. I have a relatively light 4905 with an 8v71 and I don't have enough power.

For what it's worth I have lost two 71 series engines in the past year. If I could have afforded a 6v92 transplant last month, I certainly would not have rebuilt my 71.

Just my cents. Roll Eyes

Brandon
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« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2011, 01:31:07 PM »

Artvonne,
While I agree wit you that you've heard/read the horror stories of 92's here. I really do believe it amounts to the fact that more "new" users have them, and they aren't caring for them properly.
I also know of 71's that have and do fail! I am not trying to persuade you or anyone else to go with a 92 series over a 71. But I have been around both and it is up to me, I'd prefer the 92T series over a 71NA any day.
Of course everyone has a different opinion and all said in their own ways correct.

Now you do have a good source for reasonably priced in-framed engines not terribly far from you @ United Fleet Services in Springfield, MO. Last I heard they were running a pretty good deal on swapping out your engine for one already in-framed and ready to go.
But with today's market I'd shop around a little longer and find one running at a fair price and go that route. Just my honest opinion (not that it's worth much!)
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2011, 01:33:49 PM »

I see Brandon posted what I was thinking while I was typing my last post!
Quote from: Brandon
For what it's worth I have lost two 71 series engines in the past year. If I could have afforded a 6v92 transplant last month, I certainly would not have rebuilt my 71.

I was just fixing to research and make sure my facts were correct b4 posting it!
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« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2011, 01:36:10 PM »

Somebody is pulling the chain here the 6v71 had to be the worst of 71 series ever made try cooling that puppy, 6L71 or the 8v71 are ok but if you think you are going to get good mileage out 6v71 forget that 71 series have their share of problems also but they will run longer needing repairs sometimes but don't bank on that they will pull a liner faster than a 92 series that doesn't happen often on a 92 series you get 71 series hot  they blow just as fast and the 71 series really don't like the taste of antifreeze either fwiw you are not going to get any more power from a 6v71 than you will from 6L71.
210 will not destroy a 92 that is were the shut down is set a steady diet will same with 71 series 


good luck
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« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2011, 03:23:19 PM »

Imagine how nice a 6-92 would have been for you guys to repower your 4104's. But I must remain pragmatic for the sake of our discussion here.
You may as well just find another 6V-92 if you buy it. That way you won't have to make any drastic changes though the other engine options would probably easily snap right into place. A smaller engine like the 6v-71 or 6-71 would work but because you would be taxing it or adding more turbo boost, it would shorten the life and fuel use may be worse. You could make the an extreme and silly example. Put 4 5hp lawnmower engines on a 747. You could say that those lawnmower 5hp engines are as tough as can be but that plane would not move.  A bigger engine with less power is better than a smaller engine with more power at least that's what I was brought up to believe if the engine design is the same. Some folks have gone the 4 cycle route too with great results.
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« Reply #20 on: January 11, 2011, 06:57:00 PM »

    If y'all are in agreement these are good engines I'll stop worrying about it. I appologise if I picked up the wrong impression, in retrospect there are an awful lot of these things out there, and I wasnt really looking at the "big picture". As far as an overhaul, I plan to do the work myself with the engine out, regardless of what I end up with.

    How common is this broken crank thing? The seller claims he has seen "a few" in these engines. Is it a design fault, driver abuse, or a fluke? I saw a guy dump the clutch on a Peterbuilt once trying to get a trailer out of a hole, and he twisted the driveshaft right in half. I could see someone jerking a bus at low rpm if they started goosing the pedal, thats a lot of weight to jab the engine against.

    What other engine options would work in one of these that might offer better economy, without electronic's?
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« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2011, 07:37:45 PM »

You can do about any engine combo but won't get the $  back unless you run it several 100,000 miles. This was a revenue coach and designed to make money. Several do the Cummings swap and are pleased with it. It's a dollar thing stock will cost you less and if you rebuild the 6V92 you will probably never wear it out.
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« Reply #22 on: January 11, 2011, 08:50:53 PM »

The popular engines for the MC9 were the 8V71 or the 6V92T.

Usually in the 270/277 HP settings.

You sure don't want less power than that.

It will be difficult to see fuel economy better than 7mpg in an MC9 without an entire drive line update with complimentary gearing.

With your posts so far, I'd think you'll be happy with a fresh 6V92T for least cost and hassle, with a choice to upgrade the power as you see fit.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #23 on: January 11, 2011, 09:46:42 PM »


 I'd think you'll be happy with a fresh 6V92T for least cost and hassle, with a choice to upgrade the power as you see fit.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

  What manual transmissions can be most easily be put ahead of this engine? It currently has a 5 speed, but I still dont know if that trans has a granny low. I know a little about the 7 speed thats been discussed, but not how it shifts clutchless. I would prefer a trans that can be more easily be shifted without having to use the clutch except for starting. If your all going to make me keep that 92 back there, at least give me some good tranny options, lol. No electronic's though.
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2011, 07:07:31 AM »

If you're going to change the tranny, the hard part will be figuring out the shift linkage and the clutch.  As far as choice there is enough room to put in virtually anything you want.  Someone said recently the 7 speed Eaton/Spicer was hard to shift but that it had a clutch brake.

Brian
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« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2011, 07:42:30 AM »

Art if you are going to change trannys and want to stick with a manual (and would like not to have to use a clutch) check out the 10 spd autoshift. (a 5 spd shifter might work as is)
I think Don Fairchild had a couple of these a while back (or had access to a couple)
Don is a great source of info, parts, and work on these old engines look him up and contact him for more info!
Grin  BK  Grin

Also FWIW I believe Bob Glines is putting in the 10 spd a/s and IIRC Brian Diehl has one behind his Cummins in a '96A (basically the same as a 9) give them a shout.
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« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2011, 09:26:54 AM »

I see 9 speeds with 0.74 overdrive in the MCI 9 from time to time with a 6v92 my understanding the 9 speed is 29 inches long and 7 speeds are 35 inches long I don't know for sure somebody here will know.

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« Reply #27 on: January 12, 2011, 09:43:08 AM »

  The autoshift sounds nice, but then im back to electronics. I hate electronics and computers, sorry.

  In the manual transmission thread, several were asking which gearboxes had dog clutches vs sliding sleeves. And I appologize if I am mistaken about that. But I believe, as do some others apparently, that some particular manual gearboxes are better able to be shifted clutchless, and easier to do so, without doing harm, than others.

  And really, whats the standard 5 speed like? Anyone know the ratios?

  This air assist on the clutch, does it take off much of the load? Does it work well?
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« Reply #28 on: January 12, 2011, 09:59:10 AM »

The ones I have been around in buses are

1st    7.16
2nd   3.88
3rd   2.11
4th   1.21
5th   1.00   

or close to those numbers
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« Reply #29 on: January 12, 2011, 10:35:09 AM »

good luck

 No kidding.

   I talked to the seller again last night, but its so darn cold right now I will have to wait a few days before I will go look at it. He claims its a southern Bus and that it is rust free. If it checks out and its cheap enough.....

   I was reading the "101" website on things to inspect. If anyone has anything more to add to that list I am all ears. I have a portable compressor, but the first look I will just go peek at it and see if its worth any further interest.
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« Reply #30 on: January 12, 2011, 10:47:13 AM »

The ones I have been around in buses are

1st    7.16
2nd   3.88
3rd   2.11
4th   1.21
5th   1.00   

or close to those numbers

  Are there tags on the gearbox I could locate that would identify what it would have? Can the rear axle ratio be found without crawling under the Bus?
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« Reply #31 on: January 12, 2011, 12:13:45 PM »

Quote from: artvonne
  Are there tags on the gearbox I could locate that would identify what it would have? Can the rear axle ratio be found without crawling under the Bus?

I don't believe you'll be able to identify the trans or rear end just from looking with out getting under it. But I'd bet the rear ratio to be a 3.70:1 or 3.73:1 & the transmission to be exactly what Clifford posted.
I used to work on several 9's for my uncle back b4 dad & I started our company and he ran MCI 9's, 96A3's & 102A3's when I worked for him. (Before Eagle closed up he was ALL Eagle, wouldn't consider looking at any other bus on the market!)
The 9's (& 1 of the 102A3's & most of the Eagles too) he had were mostly 5 spds. His theory was if a driver could drive a stick, they could drive any bus he had! If they couldn't drive a stick, he didn't hire them! (later on he hired a couple that he shouldn't have because while they thought they could drive a stick, I replaced several differentials and transmissions because they couldn't!)
He had both 8V71's and 6V92's and hated 8V92's (said they had too much power for a bus and tore up too many things) Then when he went to work with us 5 yrs after he sold his company he fell in love with our 8V92 & 60 Series! (GO figure ~ I guess because it didn't come out of his pocket anymore!)
Grin  BK  Grin

Just curious where is the bus yer looking @? I may know something about it or it's former operator.
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

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« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2011, 12:29:09 PM »


Just curious where is the bus yer looking @? I may know something about it or it's former operator.


  Gentry Arkansas. The seller claims he bought it several years ago hoping to fix it up, just hasnt worked out.

  http://fayar.craigslist.org/cto/2126980120.html

  How were they tearing up diffs and gearboxes, jerky driving?? Thats about the only thing I can think would break a crank. Something else to consider perhaps?
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« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2011, 05:10:49 PM »

Quote from: artvonne
Gentry Arkansas. The seller claims he bought it several years ago hoping to fix it up, just hasnt worked out.
http://fayar.craigslist.org/cto/2126980120.html

OK can't help ya with that one. Doesn't look familiar, and it's been a LONG time since I was in that neck of the woods! (used to haul chicken out of Decatur, AR just N of it all the time!)
 
Quote from: artvonne
How were they tearing up diffs and gearboxes, jerky driving?? Thats about the only thing I can think would break a crank. Something else to consider perhaps?

Yes you could say "jerky driving" or just a jerk driving either one fits!
One driver (the main & worst culprit) left out of the office one day and as he went down the road I could literally hear the gears "BANGING & Clanging" as he RAMMED it into gear from 2-3 city blocks away.
I was working on something next door at my shop when he left and never paid attn. to who it was leaving out until I heard kawham,bang,cruch, bank clunka,clunka, grind, bang. And looked to see what I'd just heard. As I looked out down the street I saw the 102 jerking and lunging while hearing twice more. I called my uncle and asked "who's driving #160?" He said oh that's Ben.
I asked "WHO?" And he said "Oh he's a new guy I hired he drove for so & so."
I told him "you better get him turned around, & have him take an automatic, or we're gonna be replacing a transmission!"
He said "I can't the group paid extra specifically for 160. Besides Ben said he could drive a stick."
I told him "Yeah, right OK but don't say I didn't warn you. By the way where is going?"
He said "New Orleans" To which I replied well I just hope it makes it home without a wrecker!"

Well he brought it back late @ night on Sunday and it got cleaned up where it sat until Tuesday AM when I headed out to pick up a baseball team that I always carried. I made it about a block down the street and called my uncle and told him "sounds like we got missing teeth in the rear-end or transmission" And he said "well what can we do about it now?"
I told him I guessed nothing. But after a couple more miles when the gear lube warmed up enough that the "chunks" in the rear end would move and get it the gears every now and then instead of a roar I would get a big carunk-wham & then roaring again. I called my uncle back and told him better fire up 140 for me I'm bringing this one back to swap out! It'll never make it to Northern IL like it is!"
He said "NO WAY, yer kidding me, it can't be that bad! Besides 140 ain't been cleaned!"
I told him it's yer choice either fire up 140 & give it a lick & promise, or grab yer log book & jacket because I'm bringing 160 in & if it leaves again your driving it!"
Well he had 140 running, swept & was mopping it when I pulled up and was muttering something about me insisting on making things difficult!
Later that day  he called and told me "You were right Woody (the mechanic that worked for me) pulled the differential out of 160 and it's toast! Huge chunks are missing out of it!"

Same driver once kept the bus at home after getting in late in the AM from a trip. When we called and told him it had to be brought in sometime that evening because it had to go out early in the AM brought it in LATE at night and dropped it off thinking nobody would be around. My mechanic & I were next door in the shop working late and took a break to go clean it and found a side window smashed out and bad scrapes on three others. So I switched out the buses the driver was supposed to take in the AM and put that one out of service. The next AM my uncle called an asked Ben what happened to it. He said "How should I know, I didn't drive it last so & so took it out early this AM. Remember?" My uncle told him, "no he is still gone in the bus Bryce switched him too because he found this damage to this one minutes after you left!"
Like a true professional he denied it to the day my uncle sold out! (then admitted he'd done it to the guy he tried to blame it on when he went to work for the company that guy had just started!)


OK, OK I'm off my soap box now!
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2011, 06:52:42 PM »

Yes you could say "jerky driving" or just a jerk driving either one fits!
 
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  Thanks for sharing, lol, now I really wonder.. I was going to say its amazing someone could tear up a big commercial Bus that fast, but you could probably destroy a heavy vehicle faster than you could a car just because of the mass of the parts involved.

  Is there a good website a guy could go to that would tell you how to check out a 92, things to look for, test, etc.. If they are as good as you guys swear they are, maybe I should listen better and go look for a runner. Also, I read something about having a motor dyno'ed at a shop to really check it out?
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