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Author Topic: Radiator fan drive.  (Read 3866 times)
Ericbsc
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« on: February 01, 2011, 08:06:54 AM »

Need a poll. I am installing a series 60 with a 4000 allison. The trans. has an aux. drive with pump already mounted for a cooling fan. I have heard good and bad about hyd. fans. Only other option is a right angle box with belt or shaft. Hyd. sure seems like a simple hook up and I have the most costly part there. Advise, opinions?
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TomC
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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 08:11:20 AM »

Two ways of doing a hydraulic fan. You can use two individual pumps-one for the power steering and one for the fan or you can use the same hydraulic pump that feeds the power steering that you install a priority valve so that the power steering gets the pressure when needed.  Hydraulics are much easier to install-mechanical gear/belt driven is less complicated and requires less horsepower to turn (hydraulics always have horsepower draws).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Ericbsc
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 08:23:25 AM »

The engine already has a power sttering pump mounted on it. The trans. has a Sauer-danfoss pump mounted. The rep just left. It looks huge to me but he said that it was the typical for electronic fan drive. It has one hose app1" and one that looks to be 1.5-2" Just looked big to me!! I like the idea of a mech. drive. Seems like less problematic, but with the eagle it is a lot of work to do.
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TomC
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 08:30:58 AM »

Didn't the Eagles use a mechanical fan drive originally? If using a Series 60 then you could use the mechanical fan drive to power the radiator on the drivers side, and the air to air intercooler on the passenger side where the over the road A/C condensor used to be.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
luvrbus
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 08:34:29 AM »

Eric buy your self a fan drive from a Prevost or a model 15 Eagle and belt drive the angle is at the top where the fan is located simple and easy way to do it plus it works all the time,if you need details on a 15 with a series 60 and the fan drive when I get home I can send those too you for the Prevost and Eagle both are about the same easy setup buddy 1 belt to deal with


good luck
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:43:01 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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kyle4501
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 08:40:55 AM »

Another way to look at it. . . .
Is your radiator fixed or mounted so it can swing out?
If it swings out, I'd definitely go with the hydraulic fan. If you mount the fan to the radiator, it will swing out of the way with the radiator. On mine, the radiator swings out, but the fan, gearbox & mounting are still in the way!

The hyd drive may use more hp than a gear driven setup, but I don't think you're gonna miss a couple hp with that new engine!

Also, it's a lot easier to run a few hoses than to mount a gearbox & connecting drive. . . .

If you decide to not use that pump on your transmission, I know a guy that could probably use it to cool off a 8V92 . . . . .  Roll Eyes

If you use that pump, make sure you get the right motor to work with it. Jon (NewbeeMC9) should be able to help with that.  Cool
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 08:41:51 AM »

I noticed on the eagle 15 that Wayne Schell is building that he put a gear box with a shaft drive up to the fan right angle. Is that what you are talking about?
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TomC
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 08:43:50 AM »

Even if your radiator swings out for engine access, I would use the mechanical drive.  How long does it take to unbolt the fan to get access to the engine?  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
luvrbus
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 08:45:00 AM »

Thats it Eric maybe one of the guys could post a photo for you


good luck
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kyle4501
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 08:49:12 AM »

Even if your radiator swings out for engine access, I would use the mechanical drive.  How long does it take to unbolt the fan to get access to the engine?  Good Luck, TomC
On a scenicruiser, it takes a while & those parts are heavy too.

(the fan unbolts easy enough, but the support pedestal & gearbox are in the way too.)
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 08:52:51 AM by kyle4501 » Logged

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Ericbsc
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 09:46:49 AM »

Unfourtantly I do not have a swing out radiator. I looked at the setup on one at goodson bus. It was gona be a lot of work. But then if you break a belt you bust be good at standing on your head while replacing it!!LOL
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kyle4501
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 11:07:10 AM »

Unfourtantly I do not have a swing out radiator. . . .

The S60 is longer, so I'm assuming that's why the stock drive won't work.

Well then, use an MCI fan belt & drive that stock fan like a lawnmower deck!
Belt life will be fine if the proper diameter pulleys are used.
Should be a simple matter of mounting shafts for the direction change idler pulleys, fan spindle, & a tensioner.  Grin  Shocked

OR - what about fabricating a shroud from the radiator to a centrifugal blower fan that can be belt driven directly from the motor? Those centrifugal fans are more efficient than the axial fans, so that would reduce hp losses.  Cool

OR, you could just use electric fans.    Wink 
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 11:09:51 AM »

The right angle fan drive in the bus is fine. I would need to add a right angle box in the corner. Eagle used the mitre box to move power outboard to the fan and bus air. Withthe series 60 the is not enough room for any of that. Where is the best place to find a box?
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 11:14:02 AM »

Havent heard of anyone using electric fans. Would probably take about a 60 hp motor!!LOL
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kyle4501
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 11:22:03 AM »

Havent heard of anyone using electric fans. Would probably take about a 60 hp motor!!LOL
Only when you're at max power output of the S60. But, that is when you need it most!

The right angle fan drive in the bus is fine. I would need to add a right angle box in the corner. Eagle used the mitre box to move power outboard to the fan and bus air. Withthe series 60 the is not enough room for any of that. Where is the best place to find a box?
I can tell you that you probably do not want a Scenicruiser box!
Like Clifford said earlier, some Prevo models had a nice setup, Pat McNeil used one on his big red scenicruiser.
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TomC
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2011, 01:28:13 PM »

The only place I've seen electric radiator fans (like 8 of them) used is in transits-since they are doing stop and go (translated heat up and cool down).  Try pulling a long hill in hot weather, and you might not like the out come.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 01:57:44 PM »

Eric Jim tried elect if I'm not mistaken and finally went with a hydraulic might ck out his blog. I'm at that point also on fan selection as I don't have the original miterbox.   Bob
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 02:08:27 PM »

Eric, here's what I did with a 6V92 transplant into an 05 Eagle.  I used a right angle gear box, and drove the original fan bub by belt.  Takes a little engineering to get the fan speed right, but all in all pretty simple.  Belt from the engine uses a spring loaded idler pulley.  Pay attention to make sure the fan runs the correct rotation.

Dick Egler
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 06:15:46 PM »

I think thats what I am leaning toward. Jeff Jefferson has all the parts either way. I can sell the trans. pto if I go right angle box.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 06:49:09 AM »

Eric, like you I love Jerry but you will find Prevost is going to be a lot cheaper on that setup than Jefferson,plus it doesn't take up as much room as the Eagle angle fwiw


good luck
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 03:43:05 PM »

Speaking of fans....

I once read a comparison between shrouding the fan and not doing so.  It was a large difference and demonstrated that shrouding should be a big part of your design. All shrouds aren't equally efficient.

Fan speed is critical.  Using a clutch adds a lot of efficiency.  I have heard others say that they deleted the fan clutch to gain reliability.  I think that is poor logic given that reducing the cooling load returns real dividends.  I am certain that they are not all created equal and some must be better.  Cost???  Are hydraulic  drive fans more easily speed controlled?

Over sizing the rad will also pay you back as you don't need to run the fan as hard or as long.  That is built in efficiency that, I think, goes pretty much unnoticed.  If you are going from a 8V92 to a series 60, or even from a 6V92 you probably have more rad than you need.  That was Brians finding and he also loaded the cooling sys with two inter coolers in front of the rads in his MCI.

The fan blades in modern engines are molded plastic.  They move much more air than the metal ones of yesteryear.  They are "efficient" and well worth the investment.

One of the Knuts here went all the way with his cooling sys design....new hi efficiency fan, shrouds, bigger rad and fan speed control tied to cooling load.  He said he cut his power consumption attributed to cooling in half.  HP is HP and he claimed to get a additional MPG for his efforts.....if memory serves.

Boy?  Isn't anything any more ever a "no brainer".

If anything in this post isn't correct or can be amplified I am happy to learn it.

Good luck with the adventure. 
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 04:21:46 PM »

John is correct about the impact of the shroud.  However, the Eagle shroud is fine and all you need to do is to make sure the fan blade is the same size and located at the same depth as the stock fan.  You can get a higher flow fan that can move a lot of air. However, the trade off is that moving more air means more HP.

On my conversion, I used a fan hub off off a truck with an air clutch and mounted it where the Eagle bearing hub is.  The original thought was that I would use the Series 60 clutch control circuit, but that did not see to work.  However, I can control the the clutch from the driver area.  I find that even in reasonably cool conditions I have to run the fan full time.  Our side radiators don't have any forced air and trying to used some sort of ambient flow just does not work.

For my gear box, I used an industrial box.  On page 4 of my project pages (see signature) I have quite a few details and photos about the fan drive modifications.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 06:35:00 PM »

Jim,

Thanks.  I didn't hear any contradictions.  I do see something that indicates a inefficiency, however.  If your fan is fully engaged while you cruise down the road....and all is well......then you climb a hill....and all is well.... you must be wasting energy while going down the road and probably while climbing.  It should take less air to cruise than to climb and all climbs are not the same difficulty.  This relates to the fan clutch being variable in coupling.  I thought( yeah, I know) that the hydraulic drive "could" lend itself to being more controlable.  What is a HP per mile saved worth?  30 per? Sean?  Clifford?  There is a cost to benefit trade off here but I can't figure it out accurately.  I do know that a 1 MPG increase is a 20% reduction in fuel cost and that would add up to $134 reduction in 1000 miles if you started out getting 5 MPG and fuel cost $4 per.   So if you can save $1000 in 7.5K miles with that improvement.  There must be a saving in wear and tear having the engine do less work per mile.

This is the same argument for getting synthetic lubes in the diffs and drop boxes and bearings and transmissions.  And the engine if your 2 stroke isn't drinking/leaking the $4 per quart crankcase oil.  All my rolling stock is changed over for that reason alone and the added wear protection is a bonus.

John
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 08:44:59 PM »

John, you make a good point.  The question is how far do you go?  A couple of folks have tried two speed gear boxes.  There is supposedly a two speed fan hub with some sort of lockup clutch.

I don't watch my % load gauge on my SilverLeaf all that much, but when I do look, it is usually over 30%.  On my engine that is 30% of 500 HP.  The savings in fan HP would be a pretty small percent.

Also consider that the fan speed/load at cruise speed (~~1500 RPM) is much lower than climbing a big hill where I drop a gear or two and run at 1900 or more RPM. 

I designed my belt drive system to be able to change the speed ratio by perhaps 20%.  Never played with it.  I think I have it at the slowest speed right now, but would not swear to that.  When I designed the two belt drives, I selected inside idler pulleys that could be interchanged with the driver pulley.  On paper that gives me something to play with, but never did.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2011, 12:40:23 AM »

Jim,

Thanks.  My point may also be academic and not get any traction in application.  But, at this point, if I were designing my system, I would be getting info on that two speed fan with the lock-up.  All the while nagging Clifford about any down side to that item and where I could score one for the least....

John
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The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2011, 05:44:03 AM »

The engine I have is out of a volvo truck. It has the fan hub assenbly still on it. The hub has an air clutch on it. I thought about using that but I don't know if there would be an advantage to it?
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« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2011, 06:02:26 AM »

Use the clutch Eric you will like it so nice to cut the fan off when pulling off to a dusty place or running in very cold weather fwiw I like the 2 or 3 speed clutches I believe Wayne is going to use the 3 speed on his new bus

good luck
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« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2011, 08:55:33 AM »

I'm with Clifford.  Don't forget your intake air temp also.  Besides coolant temp, the intake air temp will also trigger the fan on. This is done through the ECM.  There should be a fan wire pin on it. I would rig the fan clutch through relays and install a switch (or switches) in the cab so that you can manually activate the fan.  I have two switches on the dash to manually control my fans.  The intake air temp set on the ISM is around 165 deg.  Should be aprox. the same on your S60.  When the engine is hot and sits a while the intake air temp will naturally gravitate up a little, so don't be surprised on a restart when the fan comes on for a few seconds.
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Hal
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« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2011, 07:16:13 PM »

I use what Horton calls a three speed  clutch although I only use two speeds.(they call stopped a speed) The clutch uses magnets that pull the fan along at about 30% engine speed until the engine calls for more cooling and the clutch locks up to provide full (108% of engine speed) cooling.I drive the clutch from the crankshaft pulley by belts with a drive shaft going forward to a right angle box with the 34" fan attached.The fan will consume 52 hp at full pull (rpm) but seldom runs-less than 5% of the time I'd guess. My radiator and CAC are side by side with a common shroud. This is the same type system MCI used in their E series coaches but with a much larger CAC (a 14litre s60, 600+ hp needs LOTS of cool air when at 34lbs boost) I mounted an air to oil cooler behind the fan to cool the world trans-keeps the heat load out of the engine's water and keeps trans temps between 150-170 summer or winter. This system has worked great in my 43,000+ lb Eagle with zero heating issues from my part of the country (Las Vegas, NV)
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2011, 05:56:25 AM »

Hal, Do you have a part number for the three speed fan. I looked on the Horton site but do not know witch one you are talking about. Thanks!!
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Hal
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« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2011, 09:19:31 PM »

The fan clutch is built for MCI  and probably can only be sourced through them. Horton has a 2 speed clutch listed that will work as well at less money. Sorry but I don't have the numbers anymore. Hal
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