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Author Topic: FAST IDLE DOES NOT ENGAGE  (Read 4695 times)
coloradorich
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« on: February 06, 2011, 09:07:04 AM »

ON MY 1976 MCI-8 WITH AN 8V-71, ON START THE AIR BUILDS TO AROUND 60 TO 65 LBS AND STOPS. I HAVE TO MANUALLY REV. THE ENGINE FOR AT LEAST TEN MINUTES TO BUILD AIR PRESSURE TO AT LEAST 95 LBS. THEN FAST IDLE WILL WORK. I HAVE BEEN ALL AROUND THE COACH AND CAN HEAR NO AIR LEAKS. WHEN I STOP FOR FUEL I HAVE TO KEEP IT RUNNING AS THE AIR WILL DROP TOO FAST. I HAVE REBUILT THE AIR DRYER AND PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE. ANY SUGGESTIONS.
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2011, 09:20:48 AM »

It's considered polite to not type in all capitals, fwiw.  It's a little hard to read, is all.

If your air pressure builds somewhat normally to 65 psi and then stops increasing, you have a leak in the accessory air system or in the parking brake  system, both of which are past the pressure protection valve.  the pressure protection valve won't pass air on to those systems until the air pressure is over 65 psi.

The fast idle system uses the air pressure in the accessory system to operate.  the air pressure has to get up to a certain level to allow it to go on, so if you have a big leak it's normal for the fast idle system to not operate.  So look for the leak, when you fix that the fast idle system will almost certainly work properly again.

I would start by listening and looking for the air leak.  If your suspension settles really fast, look there.  If your suspension stays up, then it's check valves are operating and the suspension may not be the problem,  Can you set and disengage your parking brake?  if so, then that system is probably OK.  Look for leaks in the accessory system - all the other air operated systems.

It should be said that if you can't reach 120 PSI in a reasonable time, if your air system as a whole is losing pressure at over 3 PSI per minute, and if your compressor recovery time (time to go from 85 PSI to 100 PSI with the engine at 1000 rpm) is longer than 45 seconds then you really shouldn't be driving the bus because the bus is failing the minimum DOT standard for operation.  If you do, please be real careful!

Brian
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2011, 06:03:10 PM »

Brian hit it perfectly.

What bothers me, is that you have a major leak and you can't hear it.  A leak that big should be able to be clearly heard.  Try getting a young person (if you have a few years under your belt) and/or a lady.  Someone with good hearing should be able to hear the leak.

You are new here, so we need to say this to you loud and clear:  *****DO NOT GO UNDER THE BUS UNLESS IT IS WELL BLOCKED****** so that it can not drop on you!!!  {{here using caps is considered emphasizing and is acceptable - at least to me Grin}}

My guess is that you will probably have to go under the bus (start at the front) and listen for the leak. You can also check it with a heavy soap solution sprayed on anything with hoses on it.

Accessories are things like wipers, air seat, door hardware, etc. 

Get the coach up to pressure and shut the engine off to check for the sounds of a leak.

Like Brian said, I would ****NOT**** drive the bus until you get this resolved.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2011, 06:32:17 PM »

If you have access to a air comp. air it up with that less noise
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Nellie Wilson
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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2011, 01:18:12 AM »

ColoradoRich -

As in 'Molly Brown' stinkin' rich or just your given name?   Smiley

First off, welcome to the board. Second, where in Colorado? How's anybody gonna help if nobody knows where you izzzz?

To the point: I sure agree it's a leak and (from my limited experience) that the leak comes at or after the accessory tank.

PS.  I saw a terrific 'air leak finder' in Arcadia... some sort of infrared device, as I recall. Anyway, it eliminates the need to actually hear the air leak (not always easy) or crawl around with a squirt bottle. Jack Conrad demonstrated the thing... maybe he'll chime in?

Nellie

 
 
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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2011, 02:56:13 AM »

"I HAVE REBUILT THE AIR DRYER AND PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE. ANY SUGGESTIONS."

Probably a silly question but did you do this to try and fix the problem, or did the problem occur after you did it.

Regardless, my experience with the pressure protection valve suggests as others have said, that it may be the problem. Either it has failed or the filter immediately before it is blocked.
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2011, 05:20:27 AM »

It could be that you do not hear it leaking because there is not a leak, but a plugged line somewhere.  Ran into this situation this winter trying to find a "leak" on a guy's bus that would not air up.  Took a while to figure it out. Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2011, 05:41:22 AM »

I thought, when crafting my initial response way up there, of the plugged line scenario, and in particular a plugged or malfunctioning pressure protection valve.  Obviously it's still a possibility, air can be weird sometimes...  I looked at two things - bus apparently airs up to 65 psi OK, or not bad anyway, and then really slows down it's rate of air compression, and secondly it loses air so fast that he has to keep it running when fuelling up.  Losing air equals leak to me, and downstream of the PPV.  It's all I can think of.  Remember that by 1976 on an MC8 the pressure gauge is probably reading the dry tank, so if there was a plugged line after the dry tank it's pressure would still build normally, and if there was a plugged line before the dry tank it wouldn't build at all.

Brian
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2011, 06:07:08 AM »

The not hearing any air leaks part of it made me think of a plugged line since i had just encountered that. Smiley The other thing is that the governor may be going bad......i think that that could cause the not building pressure and not holding pressure while also not hearing air leaking anywhere scenario.
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 06:44:05 AM »

On a past coach a 78 MCI 8 I had a fantom leak.  Turned out to be the small tank in the drivers side front lower compartment.  was hidden underneath when I started poking it with a screw driver(after loosened up so I could get to bottom) it went right threw.  Another hard to hear place is the bottom of the air bags where the metal of the air bag is bolted to the mount and last I will mention is air beam.  Could be one or combination ..Soapy water in a squirt bottle is your friend here! Ck small tank first as it is a age related failure.
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 07:21:45 AM »

that small tank in the drivers lower compartment is the accessory tank, so it's an excellent place to start!

Brian
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 07:23:31 AM »

It is leaking, badly.

Don't drive it until resolved.

find leak, be...

happy coaching!
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Nellie Wilson
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 07:32:59 AM »

Ed -

Bingo! Why didn't I - of all people - think of that? Last year, after Arcadia, I experienced the same scenario as Rich. Bus was fine, had just driven several thousand miles without incident (though I had noticed a minor inconsistency when airing up). Stopped for fuel after the rally and the bus wouldn't air up again.

For whatever reason, it dropped lots of pressure while fueling, then wouldn't build past 60psi or so. Finally nursed it around to the station air hose, aired it externally and BK drove it back to Jack's (on a route requiring no stops). Lo and behold, the bus starts making air again... but too much air (about 140 psi).

We discounted the governor as the problem because it had been recently 'replaced' (huge saga about that debacle). But the same problem kept recurring and no obvious leaks! Finally eliminated everything but the governor or the unloader. And voila! it was the governor (turned out to be a piece of old crap).

Learned a lesson: Eliminate the easy stuff first!!

(Thanks again to BK, White Eagle (Tom) and Jack C.)

Nellie
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2011, 08:15:44 AM »

Pardon a bit of a rant here.  Rich, you asked a question (1st post) and have gotten great input.  However, you have folks stumbling around on your specific problem. 

When you ask a question, there should be some dialogue on you part to get the best information.  How about you updating us on where you are with the problem so that we can focus on solutions?

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 01:18:05 PM »

My experience with failed air governors is the same, they always allow too much pressure rather than too little.

Do they ever allow too little?
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 01:39:03 PM »

You guys are a little hard on Rich his problems sound like a broken spring on the discharge valve allowing the air to return to the compressor you don't here that leak but either way he needs it fixed 


good luck
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 04:36:47 PM »

Howdy Luvrbus -

Where's this discharge valve located? That's a new one on me, and I'd sure like to know (for future reference).

BTW, sure don't mean to be 'hard on Rich' and I'll bet nobody else does either. He seems a good guy with a legit problem, but he's new to this forum thing. I'd guess the comments are just well intended guidance... not to help us, but to help him.

Just my two-bits, FWIW.

Nellie


 
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 04:59:37 PM »

Notice I said a little hard Nellie lol anyway the discharge valve is on the bottom of the head on the compressor they have a head like a engine the valve builds up with carbon and will break the spring or won't close then the air go back through the compressor those inline check valves don't hold all that great.

good luck
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 08:15:15 PM »

Gus, when my governor started acting up, it would not build air past about 30 lbs. Smiley
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 10:15:31 PM »

Clifford are the "discharge" valve and "unloader" valve the same thing just called by different names?
Otherwise I have to say I have yet another thing form you! (doesn't surprise me either!)

I have never heard of it called a discharge valve, but am familiar w/what I was taught were "unloader" valves.

If not I'll have to learn more about them. And if so, I'll agree that I too have had problems with them. But it seems that ALMOST everytime I suggest they might be the problem to someone else it turns out I am wrong and most times it does in fact turn out to be the governor. (such as in Nellie's case where no matter how we adjusted it it just would not co-operate with us and led me to believe it was something else as "the governor had just been replaced" Wink )
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 11:15:50 PM »

Hey BK!

How ya doin? Sorry I missed you at Arcadia this year (undertand you were there?).

Like you, curious about this 'discharge' thingy Luvrbus (guess that's Clifford?) mentioned. Not sure it's the same as the unloader valve? Mine's on top of the head and Luvrbus talks about the bottom of the head. But these buses have sooo many bits and pieces, can't sort them all out. Still trying, but I sure envy all the knowledge on this board.

Speaking of unloader valves, mine's still in the box... and I hope it gets to just stay there. Smiley

Be headed your way (if winter ever ends) and wondered if still possible to hang out awhile? My ol' gal needs TLC and impossible to do it here... very 'fru-fru' joint (it's really not, but they act like it is). Huh

Yak soon... maybe a PM?

Nellie

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« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 06:38:44 AM »

BK, they are different the unloader valves on top of the head works on the intake side and the discharge valve is under the head works on the compression side

good luck
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« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 06:42:46 AM »

Clifford thanks. Looks like I better go out and tear apart the spare down in the shop and learn how it works before I need to know by experience Wink !
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« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2011, 06:53:26 AM »

Nellie,
Sorry but no I didn't get to make it to Arcadia this yr. Had problems come up @ the last minute and wasn't able to go.

And yes "Luvrbus" is aka "Clifford" and by far one of the most knowledgeable busnuts hear on the board! Knows everything about Eagle's and quite a bit about the rest of them too. (not to mention he knows most Eagles and who owns or did own them!)

Super great guy to have around sharing his knowledge with us "young'ns" Wink!

Glad to hear you have a spare to keep the unloader from giving you troubles. LOL

Hey if ya get up this way swing on in. We ain't got the 15 acres anymore, but we manage and have a nice "new to us" shop still.

PM anytime here or FB!
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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 08:14:24 AM »

BK -

Sorry you missed 'A' but makes me feel better. Couple guys said you showed, that I just missed you (no wonder Smiley.

Seeing as you're experimenting on a spare comp., mind coming back on this 'discharge valve' thing? I can't see much on mine (you've seen my tight setup). Maybe another part we should all carry around?

I'll send a PM.

Thanks Clifford (pardon my familiarity). After that plug by BK, I'll pay more attention to what you say!  Wink

Nellie
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« Reply #25 on: February 08, 2011, 01:31:45 PM »

I appreciate all of the information. Am currently in Walsenburg Colorado and it is now 4 degrees with two foot snowdrifts around bus. Will let you all know what I find when weather permits.
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« Reply #26 on: February 08, 2011, 01:40:13 PM »

Forgot on my last. It is Rich in name only. Also when I rev to 95 lbs th fast idle works just fine. When I stop for fuel it only looses air if fast idle is turned off. If left on air stays up. My wife thinks the fast idle uses too much fuel. My Maintenance Manual has poor pictures and some diagrams are unreadable. Does anyone have decent prints of the air system or know where they can be obtained..  Thanks.
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« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2011, 04:19:59 PM »

Stay warm Rich. The coldest temp I ever endured in the bus was 32 degrees out and it was in Florida of all places!!!! I thought last winter was one to remember. This year is topping that!
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« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 06:23:16 PM »

Rich, we are in Evergreen, Co and we can relate to the cold and snow.  Our bus in inside, but the shop is not heated.

You certainly have a lot of things to look at based on some good input.

One of the best suggestions is to plumb in an auxiliary compressor (120V).  That will do a couple of things.  First, it will sort out if this is an engine compressor issue (unloader/governor/etc.) and second, it will allow you to check for leaks without running the engine. 

A quick way to make a auxiliary connection  is to pull a  plug from the wet tank (first tank after the dryer/compressor) and plumb in an industrial female quick connect.  You will have to make a special connection on the aux. hose, so that it has a mating male connector. 

The method I prefer is to pull the plug and install a check valve and plum a male quick connect into that.  That way you can use the standard air hose.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
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« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 08:48:41 PM »

Rich –

Ain’t wives grand?  Smiley Seriously, the fast idle doesn’t use more fuel. It may burn more fuel but it wastes less. And it serves several purposes: It (1) keeps the engine warm (many positives right there) which (2) prevents flooding the cylinders with unburned fuel and (3) diluting the oil. Plus – according to some – it provides sufficient revs to actuate the alternator (but mine seems to need more). And, as you already know, it keeps the bus aired up.

Most important, it keeps the bus warm on cold nights. Grin

Hey, Chop, I spent nearly two days broke down in minus 30 F.  I’d spent all summer filling my tank, 5 gallons at a time, and used it all up (didn’t dare shut down) sitting 100 miles down the road. Could’a cried (pretty sure I did). Cry But I did stay warm.

Jim, couldn’t you just air into the schraeder valve in back? Be a lot easier to reach. Just askin’.

Nellie
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« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2011, 05:21:22 AM »

Nellie, if there is a Schrader valve that is connected to one of the tanks (hopefully the wet tank), that would be fine.  The issue with Schrader valves is that most air chucks do not lock on the valve.  You can buy special chucks that do that, but I would be tempted to replace the Schrader valve with a female quick connect.

I don't think Eagles came with Schrader valves, and can't speak for other buses.

Bottom line, the very first Rich should take is to find a way to hook up an auxiliary compressor.  That would really speed up trouble shooting.

Jim
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« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2011, 06:11:30 PM »

I have a compressor that I use to air up my tires, will connect it at the back when weather permits it is now two degrees and droping. We live in our bus full time and are at an RV Park while we purcase some land in the mountains. Will keep you all posted if I find anything.
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« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2011, 07:33:46 PM »

Sounds like a plan.  I hope our weather in Evergreen/Denver heads you way.  Supposed to be in the '60s this weekend.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
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« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2011, 05:45:49 PM »

Jim -

Excellent point: "The issue with Schrader valves is that most air chucks do not lock on the valve."  See, that's the kind of stuff I don't consider... it's why I persist in opening mouth and inserting foot. Plus I didn't realize we were talking Eagles (read, Nellie, read!) Embarrassed

Hey, Colorado, snoop around Buena Vista. Check out Cottonwood Hot Springs: Hippyish but wonderful (you can park there). Five springfed pools (varying temps), tons of wildlife (besides humans) and GREAT fishing nearby. And, after dark, the pools are clothing optional  Wink. Wanna show off? Just get to your neighborhood tanning salon (suddenly realized why BO taxed these places).

The area is absolutely gorgeous and virtually unchanged in many years. If you find a chunk of land let me know! Heck, let us all know.

Nellie

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« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2011, 04:54:00 PM »

nellie

Buena Vista sounds great but to far and snow is deep. Found and am buying 5 acres in the Sangre De Cristo Mountains at 8650 ft.

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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2011, 01:14:45 AM »

Hey Colorado -

As I recall, Sangre de Cristos are in southern Colorado... somewhere west of Trinidad. That area is gorgeous and has one of highest wildlife populations in the U.S. Pretty decent weather too. Maybe that's why all those outlaws  Shocked hung out around there?

Good for you... sounds a good plan!

Nellie
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2011, 10:31:43 PM »

Ed,

Thanks, that is good to know, but hasn't ever happened to me. Now I know!!
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