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Author Topic: lightning strike J4500  (Read 3676 times)
Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2011, 06:16:22 AM »

Nellie, give thanks that you have a mechanical engine! Grin   Keep it simple. Smiley   There may be less of us Jim, but it seems to me that all of the dying or dead buses that i see along the road are electronic, as you well know. Grin  Had to give you a little dig there from Sonny and me. Cheesy
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1968 MCI 5A with 8V71 and Allison MT644 transmission.  Western USA
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2011, 06:26:03 AM »

Ed, as you probably know, Sonnie is deep into a project to install an electronic engine in an Eagle Grin

I am not sure that you can link the stalled buses to electronics.  Indeed, my engine issues came for a mechanical problem.  That said, I did have some electronic issues when I tried to mix old and new electronic components - but that was my problem and not the electronics.

Consider that the vast majority of class 7 and 8 trucks are electronic.  If you were to look at detailed statistics, you would find that they are very reliable in general and even more reliable from an electronics standpoint. 

Then look at the millions of cars today - all electronic in the last few years -  that are way more complex than diesels, and their track record is pretty good.

Yes, I have had my share of "electronics" challenges.  However, my bus is not "normal" nor am I  Shocked

Besides, electronic engines allow you to have fun toys like my SilverLeaf.

Jim

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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2011, 06:32:12 AM »

Nellie, give thanks that you have a mechanical engine! Grin   Keep it simple. Smiley   There may be less of us Jim, but it seems to me that all of the dying or dead buses that i see along the road are electronic, as you well know. Grin  Had to give you a little dig there from Sonny and me. Cheesy

Ed,
You are correct! It's the newer buses that break down more! It's a proven fact that the electronics are a nightmare, and leave buses on the side of the road with no notice!
At least with the mechanical engines we were able to bypass this or use bailing wire, duct tape, chewing gum &/or the wrapper, and OLD DRIED OUT MCDONALD FRENCH FRIES to get them home. (long true story about the fries, I'll have to tell someday later after I get the story refreshed from mom, dad, & my uncle Robert)

While a new electric bus will require a wrecker and hrs & hrs on end in a shop then in the end when they can't find the actual "problem" or short they just splice in a new wire! (yeah I know BTDT paid $800 for the wrecker and $4000 to the shop for a 48' piece of wire to be run from the ignition switch to the DDEC unit! after almost 3 weeks of diagnostics and not able to find/fix it right!)

But the major players in transportation have the little guys over a barrel by getting the people who do large size contracts to demand bus no older than 3-5 yrs old. So while the older more reliable buses see less & less use the newer ones leave more people stranded! (makes sense doesn't it?)
Grin  BK  Grin  

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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

Grin Keep SMILING it makes people wonder what yer up to! Grin (at least thats what momma always told me! Grin)
bevans6
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« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2011, 06:43:29 AM »

Nellie, here is interesting reading if you want to become a CAN expert...very boring it you couldn't care less....

http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm

Basically, rather than having a whole wack of individual wires and switches for all the stuff in a car, bus or truck, everything has a little computer in it.  The CAN system (Controller Area Network) is like an Ethernet network to connect up all the computers in the vehicle and let them all talk to each other using packet based digital communication, exactly like how your computer talks to the Internet.  One set of twisted pair wires replaces hundreds of individual connections.  Basically all modern production vehicles use it, including a lot of motorcycles.  The reason it's hard to fix is that if everything is connected, one thing breaking can break the whole mess.  Like a corroded wire connection, or a bad computer chip in something.

Brian
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buswarrior
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2011, 06:52:58 AM »

wiring integrity will be the future of bus conversions far more than mechanical issues.

Bad trouble shooting continues to plague the transportation industry.

Darn hard to find an efficient analyzer.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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bevans6
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2011, 06:57:24 AM »

When I was working for the cable TV company, (BW will know it, it starts with a Rog...)  and we were rolling out digital cable for the first time, the tech's had to go out and "harden" the network.  That was going along with a ladder and climbing up to all the amplifiers and connectors, undoing them, and doing them back up with corrosion protecting goo on them.  Corrosion, pinched wires, bad grounds will kill a system like that every time.

Brian
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Nellie Wilson
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 11:52:12 PM »

Thanks for all the info! Always learn something new from you guys (new to me, anyway). I'll check that link, Bev... maybe I'll learn enough to sound cluey?

just gotta remember, Controller Area Network...  Controller Area Network... Controller Area Net...

Nellie
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Bob Belter
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2011, 03:15:33 AM »

Ahoy, BusFolk,

Lightning strike on an '03 bus???   And now the bus electric system is 'blown'Huh  Sheeesh, someone must not have paid attention during design.  Airplane are struck often, modern ones and old ones, and they keep going just fine, albeit it is a BIG thrill  --(I've been there in an old airplane).

Enjoy   /s/   Bob
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JWallin
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2011, 04:34:17 AM »

Also, most luxury vehicles today use a CAN physical layer running the J1850 protocol. Very reliable system.
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« Reply #24 on: February 13, 2011, 09:30:16 AM »

Airplane are struck often, modern ones and old ones, and they keep going just fine, albeit it is a BIG thrill  --(I've been there in an old airplane).

Enjoy   /s/   Bob

   Aircraft avionics are some of the most expensive electronics and electrical systems you'll find. To build a Bus with an electrical system that uses aviation grade electronics and wiring practices would likely double the Buses cost. And dont kid yourself that aircraft are entirely hardened to lightning strikes. It can and has done a lot of damage.
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pipopak
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« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2011, 09:47:49 AM »

The part about expensive aircraft parts made me laugh. I used to work at an helicopter repair station and parts dealership. Parts are usually expensive due to liability insurance requirements, not quality. IE: Robinson helicopters use standard DEXRON II oil, the stuff you buy at the corner gas station for $2 a bottle, but from a Robinson dealer will be at least $13 ea ( EXACT SAME OIL IN THE EXACT SAME BOTTLE, but with a 1 cent sticker saying that was certified by Robinson ). So I am not impressed with "aviation quality" anymore!.
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2011, 09:57:14 AM »

Lightning will pass through an airplane while flying but the plane is not grounded. That may be the reason for no damage. The part about quality of aircraft parts being better is just to make everyone feel good. The same bearings roll down the same assembly line the only difference is the aircraft part has a paper trail in case the part is involved in an aircraft crash.


A&P

John
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John Riddle
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ArtGill
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2011, 10:05:47 AM »

If the coach can be bought at a price that will allow you to replace and program all the CAN I/O boxes and the engine/transmission computers.  Then you could have a good buy and you would know how the system works.  In electronics we call it the "shotgun approach".  So, you could get a real nice shell for a great price.  You will be striping the interior out anyway and that should make the job easier.

Just my thoughts.
                                Art
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Art & Cheryll Gill
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2011, 10:09:48 AM »

Since this thread has drifted a bit to a CAN technology discussion, I thought that I should address a post that was made earlier by JWallin:

Quote
Also, most luxury vehicles today use a CAN physical layer running the J1850 protocol. Very reliable system.


I am not up on all of my SAE protocols, or what is done on every coach, but the industry seems to have established a standard based on J1939 but modified a bit.  The source of this standard is a group of manufacturers (both suppliers and coach manufacturers) and their website is:  

http://www.rv-c.com/?q=node/78

I chose that page since it gives a bit of background.  The group has been working together for several years and in May of 2010 they published their standard (all 207 pages):

http://www.rv-c.com/files/RV-C%20Specification.pdf

Martin Perlot of SilverLeaf is one of the major contributors.  I have consulted with him as we explored redesigning our fire detection/suppression system so that it would be compatible with Coach display systems.  The road map is very well spelled out for any vendor who wants to supply a product that "talks" to the coach system.  In our case, we would have to redesign the system with a new micro-controller that has can communication capability.  Unfortunately, that requires a major redesign for us and the market is just not there!! Angry

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
luvrbus
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2011, 10:26:24 AM »

You guys need to check the price from MCI for a complete CAN wiring harness for a J4500 I was checking on one for a J4500 I was thinking about buying that was in need of one you won't believe the price wow no way would I pay 95,000 and that bus may need one.Fwiw the one on our Lexus went out covered under warranty (TG) was over 12 grand with labor.
Hey Jim, Sonnie said you be sure to tell people that is not his bus  lol


good luck
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