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Author Topic: BIODIESEL  (Read 4759 times)
NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2011, 10:54:30 AM »

Just my 2 cents !!!

im running my 6v92 on pure WVO and UCO for years now. i have not seen any engine problems. my oil analysis shows normal and when inspecting pistons and injectors they look clean!!
i often get people complaining , that they wouldnt risk their engine. fine with them. !!!!!!
i run all our cars, trucks and my off grid home generator and oil boiler on it also.
i did this also back in germany for a long time, but there its a different animal , because of fuel taxes and inspections!!

i dont go the biodiesel route anymore, as with the cost of methanol, and expecially the time to safely extract it after the process, it makes no sense for me. most problems come up now with people brewing bio in their backjards not knowing what they do . dumping toxic waste and wondering why the feds are behind them. if you do bio then do it right and dont just dispose the glycerin with traces of methanol  still in it!!!!!

as for my system. i have about $800 in parts to convert the bus for wvo. it has a two tank system, with heated surge tank and 250 gallon wvo on board and for long trips another 250 on my trailer.

the fuel station to prepare it, has cost me about a $1000 for all. i run a centrifuge and severall stages for dewatering and cleaning! my fuel is prepared to less then 2 micron !!

on my truck i paid less then $ 400 in parts to set up a system with heated tank and lines. running a cummins with 500k + miles and still going strong!!

with a fuel bill of 500+ gallons a month , there is no questions how fast my basic investment has paid off !!!!

if you only use 100 gallons or less a month i would think about it twice !!!!

As for biodiesel, keep in mind that with B100 in freezing condition, you also have to have some heat sources on your vehicle to keep it from gelling !!
the part about rubber hoses and seals was allready mentioned!!


for everybody that thinks about doing this!!!!
please keep in mind that its harder to get WVO. the price is getting higher for raw oil. its at 46 cents per pound . so the recycle companies are playing hard ball and start offering money or rebates to the restaurants to keep them.
check first if you can get enough oil. if you have your first 500 gallons collectet, and have a safe fuel source, then start building you systems!!!!
i have seen to many starting this and then giving up after a few weeks of finding out , that this is not only free fuel but some hard work!!

as for me , im also looking around in other sources of making fuel, as if the situation goes on like this it will be getting harder to have a steady wvo supply for years to come.
there is a lot going on now in making diesel from plastic waste or rubber tires.
so who knows what fuel im driving next year.

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JohnEd
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2011, 10:56:44 AM »

ALL V Oils have a "cloud point".  The temp at which the stuff clouds is a function of which oil the bio was made from.  Hydrogenated oil, Crysco and such, is solid at 74 degrees and the bio you make from that oil stock will cloud at 74 degrees.  Palm oil is worse and that bio is only usable in the tropics but that is where palms grow anyway so no problemo there.  In Europe they make their Bio from Rape seed oil and it has a cloud point that is below zero or some such.  They only mix at 2 to 5 % or so but they are required to mix by LAW and they are not having any problems over there that would deter its use.  Europe, as usual, has a lot of strict requirements so their quality is unmatched and they rely on their Gummint to keep it that way or they vote the lackard out of office.  They also have B100 available.

Please take note that Bio cleans the engine internals AND is a superior lubricant and the engines over there should last longer and they do run cleaner.  With the small percentage of Bio there should be no upset of the EC functions or damage to sensors, I guess or they wouldn't allow it and I am sure that the engine mfr.s are designing to the fuel available.
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2011, 11:07:40 AM »

And its Neo for the win.

In the mid west, where all Veggie oil comes from, they have a problem product called "off spec" oil.  Taste can be the problem but no matter what it is still oil.  I had heard long ago that farmers press their own oil from their crop to power their D equipment.  Off Spec is a real problem for the refiners and they want rid of it.  I understand that we can burn that just fine.  Could it be true that the refiners will pay you to haul the stuff off?  Could it be?  Anybody?

Thanks,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2011, 11:39:24 AM »

John Ed

if that would be true, then i guess i will be on my way with my pumper truck !!!! Smiley

 Grin Wink
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NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2011, 11:46:32 AM »


just for info a pic on two of my settling tanks!!
you can see the difference between the pure clear oil on top and the settled shortning and water!!
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:51:48 AM by NeoplanAN440 » Logged
wal1809
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2011, 12:50:37 PM »

He uses the refined bio diesel directly in warm weather.  He had some pretty significant filter clogging even after using sophisticated processes and had to go to the centrifuge to further improve the fuel.

I can certainly understand below 30 the BD100 can lock up like butter.  The first and only time that has happened to me was last week as we had temps in the low 20s.  I just run 50/50 and that clears it right up.

So far as filter clogging with bd100, that should not happen if your SIL has run BD for a long while.  I can understand it if there was a build up and the bd stripped it from the tank but other than that it should not clog filters and he should not have to use a centrifuge to clean it after processing.  I would tend to think he is getting a glycerin drop out after the process which is caused by unreacted or incomplete reactions during process.  An easy fix for that is the 3/27 test.

3/27 is the ml reacted bd and 27 ml of methanol in a clean glass container.  Shake the mixture and watch it to see if anything drops to the bottom of the jar.  I believe optimum temp is 78 degrees.  If anyhting drops out within 10 minutes it is a failed reaction and must be run again with a base amount of product, meth and lye.
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1984 Silver Eagle Model 10 6V92 Allison auto tranny
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2011, 01:16:58 PM »

  Does anyone have BTU figures for various oils? Also, does anyone burn recycled engine oil?
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2011, 01:20:40 PM »

Motor oil? I havent done it yet, but I need to research more about it. Some people say the synthetic oil shouldnt be run in an engine but I havent found anything definitive that I completely trust about that yet. From what I have learned though it seems that most any natural oil will do and some people claim to even run on tranny fluid...
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The Little GTO is a 102" wide and 40' long 1983 GMC RTS II and my name is Teresa in case I forgot to sign my post
wal1809
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2011, 01:32:01 PM »

Motor oil? I havent done it yet, but I need to research more about it. Some people say the synthetic oil shouldnt be run in an engine but I havent found anything definitive that I completely trust about that yet. From what I have learned though it seems that most any natural oil will do and some people claim to even run on tranny fluid...

I have not experimented with motor ooil other than running a quart or two at fill ups.  You need to filter it and drip it across a magnet prior to tank entry.  I can tell you this, it peps up the peddle response.  Makes my diesels run a lot better that is for sure.
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1984 Silver Eagle Model 10 6V92 Allison auto tranny
www.snakebreaker.com
NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2011, 02:31:03 PM »

I had no problems with running motor oil .i prepare it the same as my wvo by running it trough the centrifuge . on my vehicles i run it mostly in a 50/50 mix. my wife gets also ATF (tranny) fluid in her Mercedes. but that mercedes is basicly the car that gets all the crap Smiley
problem with motor oil is , that most people dont care when they drain it, or what else they dump to it.
so you often find antifreeze or gear oil etc...

most of my UCO (used oil) i need to fire my outdoor boiler , to heat the house, heat shower water and heat the  wvo for processing. i hope some time in the future i have enough solar tubes to get my 500 gallon hydronic storage tank heated by sun only and can keep the oil for traveling Smiley


with motor oil its the same as with wvo. be picky when collecting the oil and from who you get it. keeps your filtration setup out of trouble and saves you lots of problems and time cleaning up the mess when you have junk oil, and less waste after all !!!


its just funny , that when diesel was below $3 nobody cared , and it was easy running on wvo. since diesel is up, i find lots of broken locks or screens on my collection barrels, and signs that that somebody tried to get to the oil.
good thing is that most give up sooner or later or i get word of it when they have trouble with their truck, because the system wasnt set up right or they only dumped it straight into the tank.

SmileySmiley
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JohnEd
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2011, 02:55:05 PM »

The people that burn WMO are called "blenders".  WMO has more junk in it than a Christmas Goose and none of it is good.  Water is on the list.  Here is the process sworn to by many.....mix 20% RUG(Regular Unleaded Gas) to 80% WMO.  Settle this mix in a warmish environment for a couple days.  Off the bottom you will drain 5 or 10 percent "sludge" that drops out because of the added RUG.  Pour that in your MUI with a splash of acetone and a splash of turpentine winter or summer.  The MPG are less but you are paying 1/5 the cost for fuel.  I have heard many swear that they have been using this for 10s of thousands of miles.  I shudder at the thought of feeding this to a 8V92....shudder, I say.  Now with a little more investigation I might feed it to my gen set and watch closely.  Motor Oil has less BTU than D, either Bio or Dino.

Synthetic oils burn just fine, I am told.  Point of fact is that in the Daym the mech would pre charge your fuel filter with ATF.  That was to clean the injectors.  Nobody had a moments trouble with hteir engine from that.  ATF is synthetic.  One of the plank owners here told me that ATF today isn't the same stuff as it used to be and that today it might be a bad idea.  I do not know but from what I learn, ATF is a desired fuel alternative as a blend.

Another "story" is that many truck stops blend in the drain oil to the main tanks after filtering.  I know ... GASP SNORT COUGH.  But there are trucking companies that burn their drain oil in their fleet trucks....again, I am told.  

There are small business guys that go around to truck garages and filter hundreds of gallons of WMO for a fee.  They say that "some" of that oil gets cut into the new oil at a oil change.  My info is that the thing in the oil that makes it unsuitable is the depletion of the additives and those additives cannot be re-blended by the consumer successfully.  The second thing was the use of the word "some".

WVO is also blended with RUG.  That process also causes some "stuff" to fall out and that stuff will clog filters also.  It needs to be settled but filtering will work with the right setup. 10% mix for summer and a 20% mix for winter down to subzero.  NO TANK HEATERS.  You can also directly blend WVO with D.  You can eval the effectiveness of this stuff by mixing WVO with RUG and letting it settle in a jar for a few days and try the same thing with D.  If there is fallout you need to compensate and if there is seperation you need to find out what they are giving you.

SVO has more energy than WVO cause of the heating.  That was a new one on me but I can't say off the top.  

When you make Bio there is a by product called glycerin.  You have a separation of 10 or 20 % gly by volume.  This is a lost fuel from the VO stock and from a chemical standpoint it is a form of alcohol and can be burned.  Burning at too l;ow a temp, such as throwing it on a fire, will produce extremely harmful fumes that can carry way over to your neighbors play swing area.....think!  The WVO burners deplore this wast of "good" fuel associated with the bio process and when the oil is burned unconverted there are no bad fumes. You can also make great soap from gly and you can spray it on roads for dust suppression or spray it on your fields as a nutrient/fertilizer.  This is the info that circulates  on the BB associated with this "hobby".  I think Bobofthenorth could comment of the fert topic as he is a licensed and credentialed consultant of the topic of fertilizers associated with farming.  Word is that if all the methanol is removed, that is a lethal toxin, then the gly can be added to animal feed.  I do know that all the meth can be removed but not by simply heating the stuff to distill it out.

Using WVO or SVO or WMO will void warranties and insurance policies in many cases.  BioD is fine and if you burn down your house your insurance will pay.  Adding RUG to anything to make a furnace fuel is suicidal.

WVO and SVO are only viable 4 season fuels with tank and line and filter heating systems.  Those systems cost nothing to operate.  They can also sit idle with damaging them......but when you find oil they are "handy" and cost effective.  Their cost is at the front end.

Good luck with this.  It is fascinating and engrossing as a topic for me and I will do some of it eventually.  Let the board know what you try and the results.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
NeoplanAN440
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1995 MCI 102 D3 running WVO Neoplan AN440




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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2011, 03:38:02 PM »




just some key pictures of the parts on the wvo system in my bus  Smiley

wvo surge tank in engine bay , with heat exchangers and fuel valves
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2011, 06:10:01 PM »

  I would be careful with ATF. It has red aniline dye in it, same as heating oil. If they dip your tank they might claim your burning tax free fuel.

  You guys in MN be careful burning anything bio, wvo, vo, or anything untaxed. They have gone after people and made them pay motor fuel tax based on miles driven. While they claim they support alternative fuels, it doesnt work in practice.

  BTU of motor oil is equal to, or higher than diesel, in everything ive ever read. Never heard of it being less. Anyone have any good info on that?

  
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2011, 07:05:23 PM »

Neo, do you have a complete on board set up on your bus for collecting, settling, filtering, heating and using wvo? Or do you make it at home and then put it in a separate heated tank on your bus?
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The Little GTO is a 102" wide and 40' long 1983 GMC RTS II and my name is Teresa in case I forgot to sign my post
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2011, 08:42:01 PM »

Art,

I thought so also.  I recall it being mentioned that MO will float on D or RUG for that mater.  I know they mix but till they do....  The density is a prime indicator of energy content so oil has less.  Again, I think a cruise thru Journey to Forever might turn up the appropriate table.  As usual, I hope, my mind is open.

John

Waste oil is 120K btu and D is 139Kbtu. 
http://www.hrt.msu.edu/energy/pdf/heating%20value%20of%20common%20fuels.pdf

Wasn't hard to find for me so anybody can do it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 08:54:13 PM by JohnEd » Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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