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Author Topic: 4 Stroke Detroits  (Read 5191 times)
Chopper Scott
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« on: February 18, 2011, 07:09:58 PM »

Just a question out of curiosity. I see a lot of custom coaches for sale that all list the motor as a Series 60 Detroit. Has that became the standard as far as bus power? I heard someone tell me that the only motor available in a KW truck was the DD 60 and also that Cat had quit it's over the road program. I see a few supplier's trucks in the shop that have Mercedes emblems on them.  Like I said.... Just curious.
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RoyJ
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« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2011, 07:37:29 PM »

I'd say the S60, in one form of displacement or another, was pretty much the standard from the mid 90's to the mid of last decade. (can't believe we're already onto the 2nd decade of the 1st century of the 3rd millenium!)

But recently, the Cummins ISM is also commanding a small portion of the market, as is the Volve D13 in Prevosts. The new baby ISX, and Detroit DD13, may become the near future of bus engines.

In trucks, you can only get a Detroit in a Freightliner, as parent company Daimler won't sell to other companies.
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Chopper Scott
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« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2011, 08:23:17 PM »

OK. It was the Frieghtliner instead of the KW's. I get confused easily. No more Cats however in the trucks. I see some of their ag tractors in my line of work and it seems they are not to popular. In fact I even saw a few of the Cat combines.  Also turned out to be a bust. Maybe the economy or the overseas market has changed Cat's outlook. Most of the s&s rv's have Cummins while bus types show Detroits for some reason. Like I said.... Just curious..
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wayne
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« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2011, 08:30:13 PM »

Cat is introducing a on highway truck next year
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TomC
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« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2011, 08:35:35 PM »

The Series 60 came out in the late 80's as a 11.1 liter and 12.7 liter 6 cylinder.  Later the 11.1 liter was dropped and the 14.0 liter came out. From 2007 to 2009, only the 14 liter was available.  The 11.1 liter, 12.7 liter, and the early 14.0 liters all looked the same from the outside and all had the same dimensions.  The 2007-2009 14 liter had a thinner bull gear on the front of the engine.  Also produced was the 4 cylinder 8.5 liter that was used in many transit buses, and in Freightliner FL106's.  Detroit took the 12.7 liter and removed the middle two cylinders, added two balance shafts under the crankshaft, but otherwise was very similar to the 6 cylinder.  2009 was the last year Series 60's were installed in trucks.

Now we have the 2010 certified (with Urea, or Diesel Exhaust Fluid [DEF]) in the 12.8 liter DD13, 14.8 liter DD15, and 15.6 liter DD16. From 350hp at 1250 torque to 470hp at 1650 torque for the DD13; 455hp at 1550 torque to 560hp at 1850 torque for the DD15 and 475hp at 1750 torque to 600hp at 2050 torque for the DD16.  The DD engines are available in Freightliner, Western Star Trucks, and Setra buses. Also available is the Cummins 15 liter ISX.
Freightliner and Western Star along with Setra are the only Heavy Duty vehicles with all American made and designed engines.

Pete and Kenworth have both the 15 liter and 11.9 liter ISX Cummins available (no more ISM) along with their DAF based Paccar engine.

Volvo has their D11, D13, D16 liter and Cummins ISX 15 liter available.  Mack only uses the Volvo based engines.

International only uses their 11 liter Maxxforce engine and 12.4 liter Maxxforce 13 engines based on the MAN engine.

As to the marriage between Caterpillar and International-the International based Caterpillar truck will only be introduced in foreign countries. The Maxxforce 15 based on the C15 is not certified for US use.  Good Luck, TomC
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Chopper Scott
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« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2011, 08:42:43 PM »

So you can get a DD in a Setra. What are the other companies using and do they have access to the DD's?
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RoyJ
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« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2011, 10:33:41 PM »

So you can get a DD in a Setra. What are the other companies using and do they have access to the DD's?

If you're talking about buses, then you can get a S60 in all of MCI and Prevost coaches. The "Daimler only" restriction applies to trucks only, as far as I know.

The 14L S60 is probably better suited to coaches than trucks, I find it relatively gutless, hp for hp, on a truck. The 515hp version I drove got walked all over the place by a 500hp ISX in the mountains (which is just about anywhere here in BC).
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belfert
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2011, 06:05:55 AM »

All of MCI's coaches on the MCI website list the Cummins ISM as standard with the 14L Series 60 as optional.  I don't understand how they could sell a bus with a Series 60 engine since the Series 60 is obsolete?  Prevost's website lists their buses as standard with a 2007 Series 60 and optional 2007 Volvo engine.

I thought Detroit was originally not going to sell engines to non-Diamler companies and that they changed their minds for motorcoaches?  I'm a little surprised since Diamler owns Setra.  Prevost was going to switch to Vovo engines since they couldn't get Detroit anymore.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2011, 06:48:54 AM »

Prevost don't offer a DD only Cummins or the gutlless Volvo 435 hp D13 in a 45 ft bus standard,MCI has a Cummins std it is the new DD15 the Germans won't sell to others not the series 60   

good luck
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belfert
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2011, 08:22:00 AM »

I was just listing what Prevost has on their website listing engine choices for new coaches.  They still list the 2007 Series 60 as an option, but I know that isn't correct as it would have to be a 2010 engine plus the Series 60 is no longer sold.

How can MCI still offer the Series 60?  Detroit doen't list it a product anymore.  I thought Detroit never updated the Series 60 to 2010 pollution standards and now sells only their new DD series?
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2011, 08:49:36 AM »

MCI offers the CUMMINS ISX as standard while the new DETROIT 13L is optional. I guess MCI has a special deal with DETROIT(DAIMLER) like PIERCE(fire apparatus) does. Not sure if VAN HOOL still offers DETROIT as they did in '10 but PREVOST is supposed to be VOLVO only as of this year. SETRA is part of the DAIMLER empire so naturally, it's their preogative the exclude other engine builders.
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DaveG
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2011, 11:53:48 AM »

FWIW, cost of replacement parts (and availability) on proprietary engines would be an issue for me. Volvo's pricing on things I've seen in the past and Mercedes availability have both caused heartaches and headaches. I assume for the Paccar line-up it will be the same. Too bad about the Cat Truck deal but I am not surprised
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RoyJ
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2011, 02:20:04 PM »

MCI offers the CUMMINS ISX as standard while the new DETROIT 13L is optional. I guess MCI has a special deal with DETROIT(DAIMLER) like PIERCE(fire apparatus) does. Not sure if VAN HOOL still offers DETROIT as they did in '10 but PREVOST is supposed to be VOLVO only as of this year. SETRA is part of the DAIMLER empire so naturally, it's their preogative the exclude other engine builders.

I guess MCI needs to update their website then, because they still have S60 / ISM listed on there. But come of think about it, S60 and ISM are both obselete.

The ISX must be the new 11.9L version, as I don't think the 14.9L has ever been put into a coach, other than a Newell. I'd love to have a big ISX on a coach, it could keep up with cars with some mods!
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CrabbyMilton
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« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2011, 09:53:13 AM »

http://www.mcicoach.com/2010-engines/index.htm
Sometimes it takes awhile to update their brouchures. But you can see that DETROIT engines are optional.
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belfert
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2011, 10:30:32 AM »

It shouldn't be that hard to update a website.  On both Prevost's website and MCI's website they still list pre-2010 engine options for each model they currently sell.  They have a seperate section about 2010 engine options, but I have no idea why they update specs for each bus model.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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