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Author Topic: PD 4106 8V71 Smokes on Startup  (Read 4125 times)
rxeno
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« on: February 22, 2011, 10:58:57 AM »

Here is a pic of my 1962 PD4106 8V71 on start up. It smokes like this for about 15 minutes (or more) then once it is warmed up it seems to stop. I can take off and run at any speed without smoke. Occasionally my starts are crappy or 3rd gear should have been 2nd and I will get a small puff of white.

I was told a block plug would heat it up and it would stop smoking. Smiley

Either way, isn't it time for a rebuild? And is this an inframe situation unless something dire is amiss?
Just ran it 65mph on a 1200 mile trip with no problems.
Burned about a gallon of oil maybe a little more.

Filled it and ran around town for about a hundred miles and no oil loss yet.

Very small oil spotting on park.
The dark spot on the ground is water shed of the shell.
This pic is off the backend after the 1200 miles. Not a lot of oil all over it.

Taking it to Motor Trucks in Everett, WA. What should I be expecting as an acceptable estimate on the rebuild cost?

Thanks!
PS Of course the blower will need it too, and the transmission, so I will need to deal with all that.
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papatony
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 11:18:26 AM »

   I don't think you have that much of a problem. 8v71s are going to smoke that their nature.  If you went 1200 miles used no more oil than that I would not get into a rebuild mood, you are looking at 8 to ten thousand dollars if its done right.  Keep an eye on your question there are a lot of first class mechanics that can help .  just don't jump the gun.
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Len Silva
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 11:23:46 AM »

I wouldn't worry about it.  To me, the best indication of condition is how easy (or hard) it starts.  If it lights off after a couple of turns, compression is good, and that is the best indicator of condition.
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rxeno
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 11:27:18 AM »

Thanks @papatony  That is why I am asking. But 15 minutes of smoke is very disturbing to most everyone so far. Storage made me move out lol.
Neighbors called the fire department the last two times I started her up.

Well, @Len Silva ... she sat for about a week, it was warm weather, and I pulled the switch and she turned over twice and fired up.
But when it is cold here, 38 to 45 degrees, it will take some starter fluid to get her going. I dont like using that but I also am too new to turn her over for a long pull to start up. I read I could fuse some things togethger from the powerful batteries involved.

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Ace
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 11:29:15 AM »

If you let it idle at low idle for very long you can expect smoke. If it starts good as in quickly, I wouldn't worry yet abou getting it rebuilt. Keep am eye on your oil pressure both at a dead stop and at speed. My dad used to tell me, ANY pressure is better than none at all!
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Ace Rossi
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 11:47:26 AM »

Next time you start it hold down the pedal until you get max oil pressure. Not max RPMs. See if it does not go away faster for you. Do not let it sit and idle for long periods just to let it run.
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bevans6
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »

how cold is it where you are?  Whitish smoke is unburnt fuel, so that could indicate a injector problem or a tuneup problem.  Plugging it in will reduce it, as will just driving off as soon as you can.  Not just idling it. 

How is it for smoke after you have driven it for a few minutes? 

Brian
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rxeno
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 12:04:16 PM »

Thanks all, yes I am seeing the point now. I am high idling it to "warm up"
So, definitely the smoke goes away after very short driving.
Seemed to depend upon warm up time.

But she sat for 8 years so definite;ly gaskets, fuel injectors all those things are suspect.

The blower needs a rebuild according to a mechanic that looked at her first.
But at $35,000 for the factory rebuild I steered off in another direction.

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eddiepotts
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 12:21:17 PM »

That is good. Unless she looks like a new Prevost on the inside, having a shop rebuild everything could really turn you upside down. You may be better off finding a good built conversion that has a good drive train although I doubt you have any real problems. I have only seen mine smoke once but it was about 36* out. It does not normally get that cold here and if it does I have not need to start it.
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rampeyboy
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 12:25:10 PM »

First time I started my Scenic up after 5 or 6 months of sitting, it smoked a lot. It had lost prime, and it took this newbie a while to figure that out, but I finally got it. Anyway, it took a few minutes, I didn't count the minutes, but it was scary at first seeing all the smoke. I can't wait to see the campground on a cold morning! Someone else here said they keep going long after being due for a rebuild, so if you don't mind adding oil, just enjoy her!

Boyce
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Boyce Rampey
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rxeno
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 12:30:36 PM »

Allcomments are greatly appreciated!

Picked her up in california, 70 degrees and smoked for quite a while.
Oil and lube and filters and the shop said, excellent no worries, last for 20 years.

Just spoke with Luke and as noted here, new block plug, fuel injectors, tune up and gasket set and maybe a blower rebuild and we should be in much better shape.

She was a recording studio for 25 years so we are restoring and rebuilding and putting a studio in and then heading for Nashville.

Looks like I am going to save my $10,000 for other fixees and repairs.
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bevans6
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 12:34:24 PM »

you really can't get a DD warm idling, so there is no reason to do it.  If you have an external compressor to build air pressure, do that, start it, and drive it away.  With 1200 mpg of oil, you're not too bad yet.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 12:35:23 PM »

That's wise. Now that your here you can get a million dollars worth of info for free. All shops will tell you what they can fix for a little cash. Only someone with a been there done that attitude will tell you if it is worth it. Don't repaint the whole bus because of a scratch on the bumper.
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rxeno
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 12:52:35 PM »

One thing that is concerning is the oil leaking apparently soaked the part that is the emergency brake.
How does that fit in with this discussion?
And what to do, oh my Smiley
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Len Silva
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 01:04:18 PM »

The other thing is to be sure you are using the right oil.  Straight 40 wt Rotella-T or Delo-100.  No multi-viscosity oil in these engines.
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 02:17:51 PM »

If you have a manual trans the leak on the parking brake could be trans oil.

If you have AT forget that unless the oil is red.

A leaking rear main seal can also throw a lot of oil.
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 02:49:40 PM »

     I just thought of some thing that might cause the problem.  Check your fan to see if it is coasting or turning all the time. If it turns all the that might keep it from warming up quickly. Also never let it idle for very long. Crank it turn on the fast idle when the air builds to a certain pressure it will come on,but was not made to run on just idle speed.  Also Texaco made their oil for the two cycle engines.
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rxeno
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 03:10:56 PM »

thanks yes CORRECT oil for sure.
got gallons of it.
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 04:35:37 PM »

Quote
But when it is cold here, 38 to 45 degrees, it will take some starter fluid to get her going.

My bus isn't called "Wheezy Bus" for nothing. I need starter fluid at 90 degrees, so don't worry about it. I have been many places in the Rockies, over passes and through hills, that many here with their low milage machines will never attempt to tread and quite frankly, probably couldn't. I do have a 8v71 with only 10k miles to put in it but why bother? My kids are growing up to fast and I don't have the time to miss out on family time. I want to use the bus while they are still at home. These DD2S engines will run forever completely worn out. I could never recoup the cost of a rebuild, so I will never do that. If you have the money for a rebuild you should re-power to a 6v92ta with a v730. That is one of the nicest mods you can make on a 4106. I have driven one several hundred miles and there is no comparison.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 10:50:09 PM »

rxeno, the oil on the parking brake is going to be differential oil, which is 140 weight. You likely have a leaking pinion seal. It would be a real stretch for that to be transmission oil. Two more things; the handbrake is a parking brake, not an emergency brake. With it oiled up, you will play hell getting the coach stopped from any speed if you just rely on it to get stopped.

I recommend that you find a road with no traffic and try it out. Keep in mind, you can start a fire under there if you get carried away. I believe this is how the pinion seals are damaged.

Since you seem to have little trouble with smoke once the engine is warm, then use your block heater for two hours before you start the engine. That should cut the smoke to a minimum.

You didn't mention your fuel mileage; the 4106 standard shift will get 10 mpg if held to 65 in moderate weather. The V730 automatic will get 20% less and produce a lot more heat.
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Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
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rxeno
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 11:58:22 PM »

Thanks pvcces  Yes I beleive youw ould be right about where the oil on the brake is coming from.
Hmmm is that something that can be fixed without pulling things out?

Fellow that owned it suggested I not use it as it is soaked ands would not stop me and would cause a fire most likely.

It appears I got between 9 and 11 mpg depending upon the road I was driving during my initial 1200 mile home trip. I kept topping the fuel off cause I really didnt know how she would do.

Hoping the shop I take her to on friday can give me relaistic info.
today on the phone the fello (25+ years at it) said yeah I could easy spend $5k doing fuel injectors and seals and gaskets etc, but he doubted it it really needed it from my description. So, sounds lik ei can trust him so far.

Looking forward to Luke's block heater to test this out too!

rx
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rxeno
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2011, 01:55:32 PM »

So.  I run the correct oil in the engine.
But the fellow I gotr it from had 10w 40 in it in California
Has this done some damage or am I good if I continue to use Delo 100 40w ?

thnx
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eddiepotts
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 02:28:15 PM »

It's nothing to rebuild it over but change it as soon as you can.
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RnMAdventures
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 02:54:38 PM »

my 04 did the same thing right after it was rebuilt. The block heater will help reduce the smoke. Mine was a fresh rebuild, new injectors, and a rebuilt blower. Your engine sounds fine.
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Mike & Rosemarie
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 03:11:10 PM »

Mine blows a little on cold start up but usually clears fairly fast depending on when she was last run. In the warm weather there is not really any noticeable smoke but my neighbor says it smells like a bbq smouldering with a ton of fluid on it. He hates the smell of diesel but I kind of like it....now. 
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 03:26:15 PM »

I really think that a thousand mile trip with fresh oil is going to cure 90% of your problems.
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rxeno
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2011, 04:28:12 PM »

Thanks Len, Paladin, et all!
I am getting the front wheels replaced  tomorrow and the rear passenger studs replaced Friday (in backwards rotation), and then we will be off on another test run.

Waiting for windshields and wipoers and some molding from Luke and we are getting into the painting mood next!
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 06:07:13 PM »

Folks, regardless of the engine life left in this engine, our busnut friend does not enjoy the freedom to smoke out the joint. This smoke IS a big deal for his situation.

rxeno, get an electric compressor to air up the coach, so you can start and drive away. oil-filled is most of our biases, oilless are weaker and easier to burn out. Pay attention to CFM, not power consumption of the electric bits.

Get that block heater in there and see how that helps.

Was the straight 40wt oil in it for your long drive home, or was it still the multi grade?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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rxeno
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 06:17:30 PM »

Thanks roadwarrior
Yes multi in that drive home
Since I put straight in it it doesnt seem to have lost a drop, but only about 150 intown miles.
Ill head out this weekend and see if I can get some speed up to test her out.

Yes I head about the electric air compressor option.
Fortunately at present it takes only 5 or 6 minutes to air up to 120.
Oil pressure remains approx 55 to 58 above the left line at all times.
is that left upper oil guage line 40 or 50? hmmmm.

The Moror truck guys seem honest and do know what they are talking about because they have echoed every bit of the good advice I received here, so Friday I will get a closer opinion.
THanks!
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 06:33:18 PM »

Ok, take that coach out for a 100 miles on the highway with the 40wt oil and see what happens.

You might be pleasantly surprised!

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 08:37:03 PM »

rxeno, that fuel mileage says that your engine is not worn. If there is anything wrong with it, it should just be repaired. In other words, if you have loss of compression on one cylinder, you should be able to fix the one jug. A broken ring is not all that unusual in this engine.

I don't think you said how many miles on the engine since it's last rebuild. It can take up to 30,000 miles to break in the engine, and misfires are common early in the break-in period.

We had that problem and found out that we needed to firewall the engine at full load in a boat of ours for about four hours. It made all the symptoms that we had go away. Loafing is not a good thing for diesels; they often overcool and will slobber unless the rings are getting enough pressure to make them seat.

Good luck.

Tom Caffrey
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Tom Caffrey PD4106-2576
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rxeno
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« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2011, 06:54:58 PM »

Today was very cold, 29 degrees, couple of days of that.
Been 4 days since I started her up. Squirt of Starter fluid in the little thingy, crank once 10 seconds crank twice, ten seconds, crank third time and she turns over and starts.
As soon as the oil is up I push it and as soon as the air comes up (about 2 minutes) I take off.

Never felt better, I have been driving around worried about it and now I can see there is really very little to worry about.
Smoke stopped within 5 minutes of driving or less (slow 30 too 40 mph intown drive)

Excellen,t thanks for all the advice gentlemen, it made things better already.
rx
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