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Author Topic: Smoking. Cracked ring...??? What to do  (Read 63994 times)
thejumpsuitman
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« Reply #135 on: March 01, 2011, 08:10:30 AM »

I have to say that I now think you're asking for too much.  Williams isn't responsible for your personal issues, they're only responsible for what they did or didn't do to the engine.  Even then, they replaced a bad injector.  If you don't have evidence from an oil sample that they did that wrong, it's hard to say that they owe you more  than offering to absorb the bill from that entire episode.  I thought they gave you some decent options.  Personally, I'd ask them to button it up and drive away if you don't want to let them pull the head off and see.  Lesson learned - old buses sometimes cost a heck of a lot in a very short period of time...  and there is nothing you can do about it.

No one knows what's inside that engine until they take it apart.  You can do all sorts of diagnostics and you still have to take it apart to see.  It's a gamble, and one that Williams isn't interested in taking on your behalf, from the sounds of it.  I maybe take a little different stance because I've been in the "fix old engines" business.  I tell people my hourly rate and my markup on parts, and that's the end of it.  I make no guarantees about anything, because I know that I can't back them up.  Sounds like Williams has a similar policy.

Brian

Perhaps you are right, but my "personal problems" were not just personal, they were in large part caused by their incompetence.  An extra week was spent away from my business and we lost a lot of money and spent a lot of money.  That would not have happened if W.W.Williams was what they claim to be. I am convinced they are not.

As for what I am asking, I think I have the right to ask.  They have the right to say no.  Perhaps my asking for "too much" will result in their offering me a just amount.  Their paying for the tow at least!  It was their night foreman who told me to call the tow in.  That opens up the other issue about their denying there is fuel in the oil. I do not trust these people.  They have given me no reason to.

As of right now, my wife and I are discussing it and if they are not willing to give us more than they have offered, we will have them put it back together, have them apply the credit to whatever the bill is and limp home.

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RickB
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« Reply #136 on: March 01, 2011, 08:11:41 AM »

Art,

Just because some people look at conflict resolution differently than you and others do doesn't mean they are "siding" with Williams. This not a for or against issue at least on my part.

It is a real and honest concern that by ratcheting up the rhetoric and posturing so high that you end up with Williams hearing you complaining instead of hearing the complaint.  If that behavior leads to them digging their feet into the sand will that accomplish what we all want, which is a reasonable bill for services rendered and reasonable expectations met by the service provider. Lawsuits, threats, turning the bus blog against all things Williams usually doesn't happen. Meanwhile, they guy who has just succeeded in getting them madder than himself ends up paying the bill. You and I aren't going to pay this bill that Marc is looking at, but he may very well heed advice from this board and I sure hope we help and not hurt the situation.

A few months back when I had an issue with a cop and a DOT fellow you and many others here seemingly had one response which was "get real pissed off".  I agree that there are personalities out there that don't seem to understand any kind of reasonable argument but they are rarer than we think and by just getting them mad we may create the opposite effect of our intentions.

A few years back I brought my bus into C&J and they put a rookie on my job and they charged me $1200 to not fix the problem basically they did exactly what it appears Williams is doing.Well,  I got mad, decided to not pay them and after a couple years between my conscience and the fact that we need two stroke mechanics more every year I went in, tail between my legs and talked to JD and he said "you went from yelling at me and calling me names to basically ignoring me, next time can you just try something in between and talk like grown ups?"
He was right and I was wrong. They charged me $200 and I have given them stuff over theyears to let them know I appreciate them. Let's face it,we all make mistakes, but does somebody getting really mad before the facts are in ever accomplish our goals?

There many more than two ways to skin a cat.

RB
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luvrbus
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« Reply #137 on: March 01, 2011, 08:35:26 AM »

Face to face and communication is the way to reslove this not emails or phone calls, your call Marc but there is no guarantee the engine will not seize with the raw fuel washing out the cylinder then your into big bucks.
Have you gotten any quotes from the other shops it's going to be 4 grand to replace the head.I probably jinx this bus when I told Jim a bus is one of the few things you can own one day it will cost sorry it happen to you
.FWIW Ed is going to pull his 8v71 from a Eagle he may cut you a deal and not that far from you a good engine he just wants more power Gary knows ED 2 days and your on the road not a hard thing to do


good luck
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:39:19 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #138 on: March 01, 2011, 08:38:32 AM »


  The 8V71 (any Detroit really) has a side cover on the outside of the block. Its held on by one bolt. Once its off, you can look straight in at the liner. If you turn the engine, you can see the piston move up and down, and down far enough to see the piston top. There is room to shine a flashlight in and with a mirror, see all around it. With a mirror, you can slip inside the liner and look up at the valves. If they havnt done a compression test or a leakdown, then all they have done for $2000 is look through a hole for 20 hours.

  No lie, we used to pull a Cessna 150/172 into the shop in the morning, pull the seats and carpet, open up all the inspection covers, pull the cowling, drain the oil, pull the plugs, do a leakdown, clean everything, put new oil and filter in, poke around with flashlights and mirrors in all the holes looking for birds and stuff, etc., etc....put it all back together and shove it back outside before we left for the day. In fact on one particular 172, it had low compression leaking past the exhaust on one cylinder. I pulled the jug and handed it off to Bob. He went to work on the valve while we completed the rest of the annual. After lunch I put the jug back on and Bob test flew it and gave it back to the owner before we left for the day.

  So maybe you can see why I cant understand it taking $2000 to look inside one hole and inspect one cylinder, without doing anything else. Methinks a lot of kafeclutchin goin on on your nickle buddy. I say $2000, because the initial work was diagnosis of the problem and install an injector. I have a hard time thinking it would take 7 hours labor just to change an injector and run the rack, but maybe it does.

  
  
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luvrbus
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« Reply #139 on: March 01, 2011, 08:43:00 AM »

If you guys never been into the right side of a 8v71 in a Eagle don't discount 7 hrs to r&r  lol you can do the left side in a couple of hours and fwiw only the old antique engines have the 1 bolt covers the later model have a 2x3 inch hole hard to see in there without removing the exhaust manifold 



good luck
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 08:55:39 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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thomasinnv
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« Reply #140 on: March 01, 2011, 08:45:53 AM »

I think if it were me i would have taken them on the offer to do the repair the right way and apply the cost of the initial repair to the end bill.  I would ask them to do that and split the cost of the tow, they already said they would not pay for the tow right?  maybe you can get them to split it.  If you just have them band aid it back together and take it to another shop you are going to be out a lot more money in the long run.  Sometimes we have to eat penny's to save dimes.  Not saying it makes it right, but it makes economical sense.
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thejumpsuitman
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« Reply #141 on: March 01, 2011, 09:01:03 AM »

Provided Coach-net is going to cover the tow, that part of the bill is a matter of principle.  By saying they could close off the fuel supply to that cylinder to limp it home, they are admitting there is fuel getting in. 

If I can damage the engine taking it somewhere else, then that is a totally different issue.  I want it fixed right and I don't wan to hurt it.  But quite frankly, I don't really trust Williams anymore.  Can they do the work right?  Yes.  But look at all the posturing going on so far.  I am leery of them.  This is a tough call.
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RickB
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« Reply #142 on: March 01, 2011, 09:04:32 AM »

Art,

I have never had a quote to run the rack that was under $600 and it always tended to be more like $700 by the time they were done. Replacing the injector and setting the height needs to be done really right and it takes time. Add to that the fact that there is no room in some bus engine compartments and it can take a full day to do this right and that's gonna be $7-800 wherever you go. I think we all look down the barrel of just how expensive these this hobby of ours can be and it scares the crap out of us. Anyone who has ever heard the engine compartment go silent on a highway somewhere knows what I'm talking about here. You're first thought is $500 to a grand for towing and between 2-10k for engine work. Thank God these things tend to run a relatively long time between major issues with the low amount of hours we put on them.

Because agreeing with him is such a possible wallet emptying endeavor it is hard to agree with Clifford and his dollar figures but I believe if you count up the times his estimates were correct despite our screams of unfairness and price gouging he was right in the 90% range. That means we were wrong in our estimates of the cost of repairs 9 out of 10 times.

Maybe one day we'll all become realists when it comes to the fact that if you don't have at least 10k set aside for repairs in the bank you are not fully prepared for what these things really cost to repair.

RB

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bevans6
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« Reply #143 on: March 01, 2011, 09:06:42 AM »

Well, I don't think there is all that much similar about a Cessna and a Detroit in an Eagle.  I don't think any of the charges discussed have been out of line, the part that's been the problem is the work hasn't fixed the problem yet.   The second shop bore-scoped the hole, at least I recall reading that, and diagnosed a probable bad valve.  If I had a bitch, it's that the first shop didn't diagnose the bad valve while it had the injector out.  That they could easily have done.

Shops around here say upfront that they won't work on an old bus like I/we have.  They don't need the aggravation of dealing with a private owner, and they don't need the aggravation of working on a bus  where they may break three things trying to fix the first thing.  This is why.  They want to deal with a company who understands the costs and builds them into the business case to run the equipment.

here is a question - can't you leave the injector out and or cap the fuel lines to it so it's not injecting fuel for the drive home?  It would just be a  7V71 then...  no more smoke!  Capping off the fuel to the injector would just let you drive it without further damage, it's not an admission that the fuel lines were cracked or loose on the injector.

Brian
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luvrbus
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« Reply #144 on: March 01, 2011, 09:08:11 AM »

You are pumping raw fuel because there is no compression on that cylinder and yes plugging the 2 lines from a injector is a comman practice for that but you lose that new injector

good luck
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thomasinnv
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« Reply #145 on: March 01, 2011, 09:10:42 AM »

Clifford, why do you loose the injector?  Because of no fuel going through the injector?  I assume it gets trashed?
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« Reply #146 on: March 01, 2011, 09:12:23 AM »

I'll tell you what to do-- get that bus to a real DD 2-stroke mechanic.  From everything I have read these guys don't know what they are doing.  Having them continue is just going to cost you more money until they put a rebuilt engine in for $20,000.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:16:37 AM by Geoff » Logged

Geoff
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« Reply #147 on: March 01, 2011, 09:15:25 AM »

Rick,
I hate to disagree with you.
But I'd go 95% on Clifford's accuracy and that's only because we're all too cheap the wanna do it right the first time ! (and I'm including myself!)

When Clifford throws out a price I can guarantee you he is pretty much on the $!

And not only that but many times Clifford has tossed out tips on where to buy stuff cheaper than we knew where to find it!

Let's face it when it comes to bus stuff ya gotta be pretty sharp to get any better than Clifford! Wink
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #148 on: March 01, 2011, 09:24:19 AM »

Montgomery was the problem not Atlanta those guys know what they are doing Marc will work this out ,how much for a new head and piston/liner set installed in a 8v71 in a Eagle bus  Geoff you worked for dealer before talking with Don I have a idea where he would be me I roll the engine out makes it a easier job and save time  
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Kenny
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« Reply #149 on: March 01, 2011, 09:26:16 AM »

Has this turned into something other than a bus related topic?
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