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Author Topic: tried to start the new to me 4103.....no go  (Read 7017 times)
zubzub
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'53 4104. Roadworthy but rough around the edges.


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« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2011, 07:42:21 AM »

what did you do with the old fuel.  I have heard plenty of stories about people using old old fuel.  Maybe run it through a filter and give it a try. $200 is $200 after all.
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buswarrior
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« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2011, 08:19:43 AM »

Well... never mind all that inner tube constructing, though it sounds like an elegant piece of custom equipment...

A rag and your air line will accomplish the same thing, pushing the fuel through to the back, and save the time for fixing the coach.

You want fuel all the way through to the secondary, and beyond. This is not the time for half measures, you have emptied the system, assume there is air in there in all the worst places, and more than you think. You also have not witnessed the coach running, you have to get something assured in this mess of variables, so get the fuel all the way through.

Using a garden sprayer and some brass fittings to connect to an unused port in the incoming side of the primary will let you push fuel through the pump and into the secondary, and then get it to start on the pressurized garden sprayer. You want some signs of life, then take it all apart and get it to run via the fuel tank?

Lots of options! Let us know!

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Bill in KS
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« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2011, 10:12:58 AM »

Zub-Zub - a good fuel treatment would clean up the algee (sp?) , suspend the wax & water plus add some lubricity and probably bring it up to at least a #2 fuel .  Just my thoughts

Bill in KS
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PD4104-4797 in SE Kansas
akbusguy2000
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2011, 10:41:34 AM »

?

It seems to me that pressurizing your fuel tank will not accomplish the intended result.  Pressure will be delivered equally to the fuel supply line - and the fuel return line. The only way this could work would be if you first disconnect the return line and plug its fitting on the tank.

tg
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« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2011, 11:00:25 AM »

  I would be very careful pressurising the tank. The larger the tank, the less pressure it takes to expand it and damage it. My Dad has talked many times about a guy rupturing a large tank for an airplane when he put 2 psi of pressure into it.

  You might try a hand vacuum pump on the return line after blocking the flow to the tank so your not sucking air. Once you get fuel through the filters and injectors into the return line, everything upstream should be pretty well purged.

  I also wouldnt give upon the old fuel. Filter it, treat it, let it set a while, drain off any water, etc... Different sources make different claims, ive heard everywhere from 3 to 5 years in an above ground storage tank, to more than 25 years below ground. I took fuel out of a Bus that had sat back in the woods at least as long as yours, but through Minnesota winters. It had gunk on the bottom, but the fuel seemed fine and after filtering it, I used it and had no trouble. In another case, I had a fuel oil tank full of heating oil that had sat for years. Was rusty and had water on the bottom. Filtered it and ran it through a VW Rabbit diesel, it ran better than it did on pump fuel.
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gus
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« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2011, 04:51:49 PM »

Rick,

Pay close attention to those posts about pressurizing the fuel tank, that is precarious at best. It takes very little pressure to rupture or grossly swell up a fuel tank.

The pressurized garden sprayer of auto fuel pump is your best bet, it doesn't take much pressure. The engine mechanical fuel pump is only about 26 psi or so.

One advantage to using a pump at the fuel tank is it will also show if there are any leaks in the supply line because it is normally under suction and sucks in air instead of leaking fuel. Any air sucked into the supply line can cause low power problems and hard starting. Been there!
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luvrbus
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« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2011, 05:03:31 PM »

You are a little off on 26 lbs Gus those pumps are 65 to 75 lbs psi 


good luck
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Rick59-4104
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« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2011, 06:26:20 AM »

 Thanks folks,
 I will forget about putting air to the fuel tank and will get a pump or try just gravity feeding from an auxliary tank with a short piece of hose.
 I did notice someone has removed the fuel line from the top of the tank and the bus is drawing fuel from a line/elbow attached to the drain at the bottom of the tank so I will probably be reversing this. Should I be able to move the rocker that operates the injector by hand?

Thanks to all

Rick
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NW Arkansas
1959 GM 4104  No. 4115
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1957 Airstream 13 panel Overlander
luvrbus
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« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2011, 06:31:22 AM »

Rick, the fuel rod should move freely for those engines that have not been started in years remove the valve cover and use vise grips on the end of the shaft then you can control the engine

good luck
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norules
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« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2011, 06:37:16 AM »

PRIMING A DETROIT DIESEL

First - here's the usual flow of Fuel in buses

A - From the Fuel tank pickup to the "check valve" - The check valve is there to prevent fuel from running back to the tank on shutdown
"check valves can be anywhere between the pickup and the first filter - the usually places are the bulkhead - or at the first filter

B - the first filter in called the "PRIMARY" filter - that will be the one closet "in line" with the fuel tank - now it may not be the one that is physically closest 
to the Fuel tank - just look at the lines coming from the fuel tank and follow it to the PRIMARY FILTER - now - there will also be a return fuel line going
back to the fuel tank - if you follow that path that will lead back to the engine and not a filter - so go follow the OTHER fuel line

C - now that you found the "PRIMARY Filter - most will have a THIRD PORT on the filter housing with a plug in it - the plugs are USUALLY 1/4" inch pipe
thread (commonly refered to as 1/4 NPT - national pipe tread) - don't be fooled the 1/4 refers to the APPROXIMATE inside diameter of that pipe - this
is where you would install a 1/4 " pipe thread to BARBED (Lowes / Home depot / Ace) fitting to attach the hose and of the garden sprayer full of fuel

D - from the primary filter - next is the FUEL pump - followed by the (DDEC heat exchanger cooling plate if the engine has Detroit Diesel Electronic Control)
then followed by the SECONDARY fuel filter - to the engine (sometimes left and right side split off (paralell)  - other times they run in series.
       
E - The overflow fuel (fuel not used by the injectors - about 90% is not used) will return back to the fuel tank thru a very important "RESTRICTOR VALVE"
The RESTRICTOR is usually a small inline removable device with about a .070 opening  there to help maintain fuel pressure  (which is about a low of 15 psi at idle to a regulated  (by the fuel pump pressure relief spring) to 50-60  psi  at 1200 rpms and above - note the fuel pressure at the input side of the fuel pump and primary filter is about 6" to 12" of vacuum - that is the sucking power of the fuel pump  - 6" indicates a clean filter - 12" could indicated a clogged filter.

Fill the filter (primary and secondary ) with fuel - fill the garden sprayer with fuel - remove the spray nozzle from the end of the sprayer hose -
attach the garden sprayer hose to the barbed fitting on the primary filter with a hose clamp and GENTLY pump at least of the garden sprayers fuel into the engine -

IF a DETROIT DIESEL FUEL PUMP BECOMES AIR BOUND (no FUEL IN THE PUMP) THEY WILL NOT SUCK FUEL - this is why you need to push fuel into the primary - thru the pump and into the secondary and up to the engine to do a PROPER job of PRIMING YOUR DETROIT ENGINE









 
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« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2011, 06:50:22 AM »

  What about having a booster (priming) pump installed at the tank?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2011, 07:01:51 AM »

Good grief those engines are easy to prime it's not a major deal  most of the old engines had a quick coupling on the primary filter to do that and Paul some buses do have a pump in the tank but is called a lift pump and when they go bad no one replaces it they just add a in/line pump
« Last Edit: March 06, 2011, 07:33:48 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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buswarrior
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« Reply #27 on: March 06, 2011, 07:31:38 AM »

I am suspicious about this fuel pick-up externally from the bottom of the tank.

Has this been a work around for the fuel pick-up being somehow unusable?

I'd be inclined to leave that alone for the moment, let's get it running.

Then, before you fill the tank, you want to put just the smallest amount of air pressure to the fuel pick-up, enough that a crack or pin hole in the pick-up tube will hiss into the tank, but not enough to blow bubbles out the bottom of the pick-up. Someone has to have good ears.

A pick-up that sucks air on a part tank of fuel will make bubbles in the fuel down the back, causing power problems and prime problems.

happy coaching!
buswarrior



 
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Rick59-4104
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« Reply #28 on: March 06, 2011, 02:42:49 PM »

 Primed the system with a garden hand pump plumbed into the primary filter, still no hit, took the valve cover off, the injector control tube does not move or rotate, I took out the pins out and disconnected the rods  at each end of the tube, it still does not rotate, sound like stuck injectors?

 When the engine is cranking the rocker arms are not touching the top of the injectors...
 If injectors are stuck is the next step replacing the injectors?

Thanks,


Rick
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NW Arkansas
1959 GM 4104  No. 4115
1972 Grumman Kurbmaster Stepvan Conversion
1957 Airstream 13 panel Overlander
luvrbus
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« Reply #29 on: March 06, 2011, 02:45:44 PM »

Pull the injectors and soak in acetone on lacquer thinner it may save you some money


good luck
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