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Author Topic: tried to start the new to me 4103.....no go  (Read 7183 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2011, 09:53:39 PM »

Don't hold back next time Grin Grin Grin

John the friendly
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TedsBUSted
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« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2011, 11:29:16 PM »

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people here say that either only works if there is fuel getting to the engine so there is at least some fuel and either in the cylinder.

I have let that one pass several times to avoid arguments and making someone else wrong. With that being said, I can demonstrate that ether works very well by itself.

Barn Owl,
I'm curious how you'd demonstrate the ether-only engine fuel? Although I'm of the opinion that it's not workable, I would be more than open minded  to other views.

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Rick59-4104
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« Reply #47 on: March 09, 2011, 02:19:39 AM »

 I tried starting fluid about 4 short blasts 2 or 3 different times directly in the air intake while cranking the engine over (removed the hose from the air filters) while making sure the emergency shut off was open....It did not even hit nor did I get any smoke at all out of the exhaust... It did make a slight knocking sound when I put the starting fluid to it., same sound I have heard when using starting fluid on tractors...but did not try to fire.

 The injectors are in the down position,  Paul and I talked today and he suggested that the first time I cranked it with the valve cover on the injectors were pushed down and stayed down due to some crud in them. This makes logic to me. 

 I sent Dallas an e-mail about my problem, he said he would call in a day or so...


Rick
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1959 GM 4104  No. 4115
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« Reply #48 on: March 09, 2011, 04:57:47 AM »

Rick,

I'll try and call today.

Dallas

I tried starting fluid about 4 short blasts 2 or 3 different times directly in the air intake while cranking the engine over (removed the hose from the air filters) while making sure the emergency shut off was open....It did not even hit nor did I get any smoke at all out of the exhaust... It did make a slight knocking sound when I put the starting fluid to it., same sound I have heard when using starting fluid on tractors...but did not try to fire.

 The injectors are in the down position,  Paul and I talked today and he suggested that the first time I cranked it with the valve cover on the injectors were pushed down and stayed down due to some crud in them. This makes logic to me. 

 I sent Dallas an e-mail about my problem, he said he would call in a day or so...


Rick
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« Reply #49 on: March 09, 2011, 08:23:39 AM »

   The auto ignition temperature of Ether is 338 dgrees F, #2 fuel oil is about 500F. On paper you would think the Ether would go off well before diesel, but perhaps the Ether is drawing away more heat through evaporation. If the low limit temp for starting is 40 to 50F, even though its not hot enough to ignite fuel oil, its still hot enough to smoke, ive seen em smoke at much colder temps and not even knock. Maybe thats enough to light off the Ether, and maybe without any fuel its just not getting hot enough for Ether alone.

  Also, on an engine thats sat a really long time, its very probable the rings are gummed up and not sealing like they would with clean fresh oil on them. This is a good candidate for Marvel Mystery Oil IMHO. You need to pull the injectors anyway to free them up. While theyre out, pour a couple tablespoons of MMO down each injector hole, crank the engine through by hand a few times, and leave it sit a day or two while you play with the injectors. You wont need any Ether when you get it back together, the MMO should light it up by itself if the engine has any compression.
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Len Silva
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« Reply #50 on: March 09, 2011, 08:53:23 AM »

I'm sure others more knowledgeable than I will comment but I suggest that if you pull the injectors, be very careful to keep track of them and return then to the same hole.
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« Reply #51 on: March 09, 2011, 11:31:52 AM »

I'm sure others more knowledgeable than I will comment but I suggest that if you pull the injectors, be very careful to keep track of them and return then to the same hole.

Why?  They don't interface with anything...do they.  Not like a valve with the seat and guide.  Rocker arm contact point?

Thanks,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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Rick59-4104
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« Reply #52 on: March 09, 2011, 12:06:35 PM »

 I was just told by a very knowledgeable person  if a 671 valves are out of adjustment = no compression = no hit even with starting fluid. Makes sense to me Wink

Rick
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JohnEd
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« Reply #53 on: March 09, 2011, 12:14:52 PM »

If it ran going in there the valves can't get out of adjustment just from sitting.

Yes mal adjusted valves will prevent it from starting.  What else did the mech. that did that touch?  Hopefully, not the brakes.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #54 on: March 09, 2011, 12:22:32 PM »

 The guy was a wrench turner, how good I don't know. I'm thinking he did some tinkering after he got the bus home, hard to say but I am hoping this is the problem along with Injectors... I will give him a call and see if he can remember if anyone "adjusted" the valves. Will be a couple of weeks before I can get back on it, have a show in Amarillo Texas next weekend to get ready for.

Rick
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1957 Airstream 13 panel Overlander
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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2011, 12:46:09 PM »

To cause a no-start, the valves would have to be adjusted so tight that they aren't seating.
If so, the engine would roll very easy and "wheeze" compression through the exhaust.
Within range of the adjusting screw, I don't think the valves can be set so loose as to cause a no-start.

As long as there is at least a bit of play at the bridge, or probably rocker if the original 2-valve head, indicating that the valve(s) can seat while the cam is "low" that's enough of an adjustment for a test run.

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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2011, 02:33:13 PM »

After talking to Rick today, it seems that there is between 1/4 and 3/8" play between the top of the injector and the rocker. It could be that they are all frozen in the down position, but not likely. I think it's more likely the rockers have been loosened s much they can't make the injector pop.
Since the rack is stuck, even with the fuel shut off solenoid rod and governor rod disconnected, there is either at least one injector that has a frozen rack or the rod itself has rusted in place. PRobably a stuck injector.

Rick is going to perform some localized testing to see what is holding the rack closed when he gets a chance.

The exhaust valve rockers seem to be so tight (little or no lateral or vertical movement when the valve is at the low spot on the cam lobe), that they aren't allowing the valves to close, hence, no compression, or not enough to allow firing of the engine.

There is also no air line to the fuel shut off solenoid...... this all leads me to believe that there is a problem that can be cured with a set of injectors, or at least soaking the existing injectors in paint thinner and pumping paint thinner through the lines.

We shall see.
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« Reply #57 on: March 10, 2011, 08:30:32 AM »

Just an idea, I have bought construction equipment that someone had purposely mis- adjusted things for the reason that no one else could move or use the piece. I went through weeks of this after buying a yard full of stuff from a guy that had money problems before he died. The kind of stuff that normal thinking would never figure out. Think out of the box - good luck.
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« Reply #58 on: March 10, 2011, 08:56:00 AM »

 Yes, I would like to get the injectors unstuck and see if the engine is worth sinking any money into without putting new injectors in....underneath the valve cover everything looks good, no rust or built up deposits so I think they or some are just stuck. Might take a piece of hardwood or a brass rod and lightly tap on the tops of the injectors??  Is this something I should or should not do?

 Rick
you need to make sure your close to center on the injector top is the main thing my two cyl looked good under the valve cover also
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Barn Owl
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« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2011, 07:01:30 PM »

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I'm curious how you'd demonstrate the ether-only engine fuel? Although I'm of the opinion that it's not workable, I would be more than open minded  to other views.

OK, most recent use was on a Honda XR80 that I bought. The carburetor was in a box and I needed to know if it had any chance to run. Sprayed a shot of ether and ran. I know that is a gas engine so I had to dig deeper to confirm the diesel engine will run on it. For starters grew up on a farm and I worked for an excavating company in my early twenties where both places I was exposed to, and was taught, to use ether to solve a multitude of problems. One of those was lost prime etc. But I have never been schooled in diesel mechanics so I talked to six of the diesel mechanics where I work and asked them if diesels will run on ether alone. All said yes and many had quite a few stories to support it. I say if it burns by a match then it can be fuel for something. One mechanic did say that the new Cummins trucks will not hit on ether alone and didn't know why, but thought it might ignite to far before TDC and cause it to lock. I have personally never used it on an engine that didn't have fuel in it at one time or another, be it gas or diesel. If you can point me to a link or something I would like to know more about the mechanics of how ether works. The more I know the better I can use it. I only have what I have experienced or have been told.
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