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Author Topic: WVO fuel issue  (Read 3598 times)
wal1809
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« on: March 26, 2011, 02:51:04 PM »

Alright fella and fello busnuts I have a problem I am trying to work out.  It deals with my waste veg oil fuel system.  Hold on before you stop reading.  Some of yall on here know fuel systems front and backwards so your thoughts could solve the problem, whether yall believe in WVO as a fuel or not.

Here is the problem.  I have replicated the original fuel system in the bus.  I am running 50% bio diesel and 50% store bought diesel in the main tank (no problems).  In the WVO tank I am running the same fuel 50%/50% so I know it is not a fuel issue.  I have installed two 3 way valves.  The first has main tank fuel to one port and the other has wvo tank fuel coming to it.  When the valve is turned off the motor is running off of the main tank.  When the valve is activated it is running off of WVO tank (Remember same fuel in both tanks for now).

I can take off and run like normal when on the main tank.  When I switch I feel a power loss.  Te bus will get to 60 mph max and takes a long time to get there.  When I switch back to the main tank it clears up in about 5 seconds and all is back to normal.

There are 4 components between the wvo tank and the motor which are 2 heat exchangers, 1 spin on filter and the 3 way valve. The fuel line is larger than the original fuel line.  I donít believe that is a factor.  The filter is brand new with only about 2 or 3 gallons of fuel through it.

I bypassed 1 heat exchanger and it is still doing it.  I donít believe the other heat exchanger is the problem.  When it was out I blew air through it and it was an easier flow than the other heat exchanger.

One person I spoke with believes it could be an air bubble issue.  I canít get my head around that.  When I put this together I used yellow tape and I cranked the bs out of the fittings paying particular attention to getting that part right.  I have ordered a vacuum gauge but it is not here yet.  I intend to put a gauge on it after each component to see if on is particularly higher than any of the rest.

Any thoughts?
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Van
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2011, 02:57:04 PM »

Return pressure? maybe blocked vent ? I'm curious. Good luck.

  Van
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wal1809
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2011, 03:14:59 PM »

Hold on there van!! This did not cross my mind.  Talk to me about return pressure. 

Where is the check valve located on a 6v92? 

I tapped into the return line where two lines were connected end to end by a compression fitting and the line was headed back to the main tank. 

The fitting was on the return fuel line to the left side of the motor.  I hope I didn't pull a stupid.  Is there 1 or 2 return fuel lines?

I used the same fuel line for return that I did for the the main fuel line.  I just assumed I was on the downwind side of the check valve.  If I have missed the check valve then the return fuel to the WVO tank will be wide open and no pressure building up.

Is the check valve on top of the motor right in front of the blower where the fuel lines are connected to.  I assumed it was in there as I can see the original return fuel line is not interrupted as far back in there as I can see.

Tell me some more while I go poke my head under there.

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jackhartjr
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2011, 03:42:57 PM »

Rut Row!
A friend bought a sailboat...did not trust that the diesel fuel was good...so he moved the fuel line to a 5 gallon can and took off in Charleston Harbor.  Got back to the dock and wondered why there was a large fuel sheen around the boat.  I asked him if he had run the fuel return line to the 5 gallon tank too?  He asked if that was important.  (He had been filling up the fuel tank on the boat!)
I say all that to ask this question; When you switch fuel tanks does that also switch the return lines to the tank you are drawing from?
Jack
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wal1809
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2011, 04:19:11 PM »

Yes there are two 3 way valves.  1 valve selects fuel from wither tank and the second valve allows it to go to either the main tank or the WVO tank.  It is up to the driver to decide.  In other words I can leave the second valve on if I want to send regular diesel to the WVO tank to aid in diluting the fuel, purge that tank of WVO and up the esters of the WVO.

I used the original fuel return line to the valve and added new where it was needed to complete hooking up the system.
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 04:33:30 PM »

Is the second tank properly vented?  Try leaving the fill cap loose if there is any question about that.

Try leaving the return line switched to the main tank while you supply from the second tank to eliminate the return circuit. (Make sure you have enough room in the main tank for the return fuel).

Other than that, I can only see a suction leak or restriction in the second supply line.
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wal1809
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2011, 05:17:23 PM »

I have tried the fuel return in both directions.  I tried main tank to WVO tank and no problems. 

The problem only happens when I switch on the WVO tank fuel to motor.

It is going to be a pain in the hind end but I am going to get a 6 foot piece of fuel line and go straight from the tank to the motor and start back tracking behind every component until I find it.

I got a feeling it is the filter.  I bought a 1 inch port fuel spin on fuel filter housing from tractor supply.  I figured it would be ok as I would be replacing the cheap spin on filters quite often.  The 1 inch ports are necked down to 1/2 hose barb fittings.  I am wondering if there is not a bubble of air trapped in the top of that housing.
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NeoplanAN440
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 05:54:09 PM »

you will be searching for ever , without a vacuum gauge and fuel pressure gauge !!!

first the orrifice for the return from the engine , should be after the t where both return lines from l and r head come together !!!   a fuel pressure gauge will show you if its there, or if you maybe have it only when return valve is switched to diesel. without the orifice , you will have almost no fuel pressure , and related to it no power.

on the other hand , the vacuum gauge will show if the issue is maybe  the valve size (restricted ) or maybe a bad flowing filter.  some diesel filter will not work well with wvo. and flow horrible. even with my large heated racor fh 500 i see some restriction.
also i think you mentioned you use the omar valves. i think from how the seals are working, that they wont flow the same on both ports!!!


just my cents


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wal1809
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 06:00:00 PM »

Winner winner chicken dinner Neoplan!  I went out and hooked a 6 foot piece of fuel line straight from the tank to the valve, bypassing all of the components with the exception of the valve.  Same thing happened.  I did not run it long as there was no filter.  I now suspect the the 3 way valve has 2 different flow rates.  In the off (diesel position) the flow rate has to be higher.  The restriction is right there in the valve.

I will order the others and use these valves for my Excursion when I gain the juevos to tackle that project.

NEoplan what is you thoughts on the sv200 valves?
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Van
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 07:28:57 PM »

Sounds like you got a handle on it Wayne, Lol I just threw that out there. My check valve( 89-15) is where the line comes in thru the bulk head. Wink
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norules
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 07:30:01 PM »

can't find info on SV200

can they handle a 6v92ta spill rate (return fuel) of 62 GPH at 50-70 psi  (full load/max rpms for a 6v92ta)
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luvrbus
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 07:34:11 PM »

Sure glad you got it solved Wayne I was going to return your call Sun and tell you to switch to McDonalds   


good luck
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robertglines1
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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 07:40:04 PM »

good positive outcome! let us know for sure.
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« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 07:43:48 PM »

Sure glad you got it solved Wayne I was going to return your call Sun and tell you to switch to McDonalds   


good luck

  lol
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wal1809
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« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 08:07:04 PM »

Hello Luvrbus,  I am going fishing tomorrow because the white bass are going ballistic at Somerville.  I will be on the road to the airport after 5 pm to pick up my wife.  I'll have my telephone with me.
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wal1809
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« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 08:14:25 PM »

can't find info on SV200

can they handle a 6v92ta spill rate (return fuel) of 62 GPH at 50-70 psi  (full load/max rpms for a 6v92ta)
The only people I know that carry them is greasecar.com. They claim the valves are good to go on a commrcial vehicles.  I don't know for sure.  It is difficult to say the least to find high flow valves without spending a lot of coin trying the different ones.  I sent an email to divinerightstrip who has had some dealings with greasecar.  I have asked her report back on any information she has discovered about the sv200 valves.
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wal1809
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« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2011, 08:19:54 PM »

Sounds like you got a handle on it Wayne, Lol I just threw that out there. My check valve( 89-15) is where the line comes in thru the bulk head. Wink

Thank you van!  From what I understand there should be a check valve for fuel from the tank to the motor and an orifice/ valve for return which keeps a steady pressure on the fuel system.  I suspect that orifice in on top of the engine block right in front of the blower where the return fuel line comes out and returns to the tank.

Am I way off or no.
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norules
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« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2011, 09:12:01 PM »

because your runing the same fuel in both tanks

just disconnect the return line 3 way solenoid valve WIRES (so that it cann't be energized - bet the engine will run fine

MY GUESS - you taped WVO into the return line AFTER the restrictor - so you can't get enough fuel pressure to the injectors when your in WVO mode (return and supply solenoids activated)  

P.S. the restrictor is usually about a .080 orifice on a 6V92TA IIRC

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wal1809
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« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2011, 04:45:22 AM »

Where is the .080 orifice located on the motor?
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« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2011, 05:17:23 AM »

Wayne, my restrictor fitting is located on the rear of the left head, looks like a 90 brass elbow. Clifford surprised me! Shocked, I thought for sure he'd choose Burger King lol! Grin
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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2011, 08:01:15 AM »

Hi Wal
This is how I set mine up. I am running a 6-71. I split the diesel line and put in two high flow valves and one on the return line. I am sucking thru two heat exchangers and a Racor 1000 with a pad heater. I have a vacuum gauge on the Racor and it hasn't changed in two thousand miles. I have heard that Detroits pass a lot of fuel. I've heard that two valves are necessary. I've never had any problems.
Jerry
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luvrbus
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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2011, 08:39:42 AM »

I wouldn't worry to much about the restriction orifice I ran the high capacity fuel  pump on my 8v92 without a orifice never was a problem but I didn't use the french fry fuel either.
 I was after the cooler fuel return to make a little more power and you need the heat the way I read it on the WVO sites   
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wal1809
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« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2011, 08:17:05 AM »

Hi Wal
This is how I set mine up. I am running a 6-71. I split the diesel line and put in two high flow valves and one on the return line. I am sucking thru two heat exchangers and a Racor 1000 with a pad heater. I have a vacuum gauge on the Racor and it hasn't changed in two thousand miles. I have heard that Detroits pass a lot of fuel. I've heard that two valves are necessary. I've never had any problems.
Jerry
Here is my system:  Large 100 gallon WVO tank pump feeds a small 20 gallon fuel tank.  The 20 gallon has 12 feet of coiled stainless steel tubing with engine block water flowing through it.  From the small tank the fuel line goes through a large heat exchanger heated with engine block water.  Then the fuel goes through the filter and back into a 16 flat plate heat eschanger heated with block water.  Then into the valve and into the motor.  The fuel definately gets hot.  You can't keep your hand on anyone of the components when it is operating at normal temperature.
I am calling greasecar here in a minute to order their high flow valve the SV200.  If that doesn't give enough fuel then I will order another and flow the fuel through both the OMAR valves and use the Greasecar for return.  I am going to have them overnite the valve so I can attempt to get the system back together before the rally this weekend.  It would be nice to get there on grease, first time to run on grease.  I am also going to install a ball valve in the hot water line so I can shut it off if in the event I need to run straight regular diesel through thwvo system.


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Charley Davidson
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« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2011, 08:33:14 AM »

Here's a thought, When I first tried my system I had the same issue, lack of power when I switched to veg. I figured out my issue as being the way the fuel delivery system was set up to suck fuel through one filter and push through the other so I set mine up to push fuel through both.
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wal1809
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« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2011, 10:32:10 AM »

Hello Charlie, I used a 6 foot piece of 1/2 inch fuel line and bypassed everything including the filter.  I went from tank to the valve, same problem.  It has got to be a restriction in the flow rate at the valve.  I can't think of anything else it would be.
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« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2011, 11:03:07 AM »

   Having never been anywhere near a grease car, I have to ask, do they smell like the oil they burn, or still just a diesel smell? There have been lot of comments over the years about smelling like frech fries etc., just curious.

   
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wal1809
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« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2011, 11:20:38 AM »

   Having never been anywhere near a grease car, I have to ask, do they smell like the oil they burn, or still just a diesel smell? There have been lot of comments over the years about smelling like frech fries etc., just curious.

   
They smell just like what was cooked in the oil prior to being used as a fuel.  It is funny to see peoples reaction when they get a good whiff of the pipes.  One of my contacts is a pakistanny restaurant.  They cook with some differnet spices than we typically use here in the US.  There is a definate curry twinge in the air when I am driving on that oil.

This is after it has been processed into biodiesel.  I have yet to run straight unprocessed oil so I would imagine it would smell even more like the restaurant food be it unprocessed.
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wal1809
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« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2011, 01:43:00 PM »

Update on the conversion.  I called Greasecar.com and ordered the SV200 valves.  They swear by all that is holy these valves will afford enough flow to run the motor.  If not I will have to go whoop somebody!! They were $300 and some change.  This should do it.  I had them sent 3 day air and ordered them early enough this morning to get them out the door today, so I should get them Thursday.  If not for sure Friday.

Lets seenow, work until midnight installing the new valves.  Test drive.  Wake up and head to Rally in Franklin, Texas on Saturday.  Keep your fingers crossed.
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Charley Davidson
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« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2011, 02:54:01 PM »

Good luck, hope all works out well & hope that Grease car is not the same guy that runs one of the forums that never sends out parts.
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wal1809
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« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2011, 05:07:21 PM »

Well thank you Charlie d. I hope they are reputable as well.  I think I heard if the guy your talking about.  I don't beloved greasecar is the one.  Divinerightstrip knows the greasecar people and says they are good folks.
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