Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
July 29, 2014, 01:47:43 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: New ownership began September 1st 2012!  Please send any comments to info@busconversions.com
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Steel to aluminum wheels  (Read 5407 times)
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« on: April 01, 2011, 08:52:49 PM »

  I see many references to stud piloted and hub piloted wheels, but nothing to indicate if the wheels are physically different. Are aluminum wheels for Buses and trucks made both ways, and if so, is it easy to tell the difference, are they marked etc.? And that said, what size and width wheels should one be looking for these days? It appears 22.5 is popular and will be around a while, but what are most trucks running right now that would work??

  I guess what im asking for is an education that would hopefully help some others besides just me in selecting the right aluminum wheel and studs, nuts etc.. I also am curious about running steel wheels on the inside duals with aluminum on the outside.
Logged
Rick59-4104
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310





Ignore
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2011, 09:51:32 PM »

 Paul,
 All our Mack Mail Trucks run 22.5 wheels, my 04 has 24.5". If I was buying new I would probably go with 22.5.
 Lug nuts for stud center wheels will be different than hub center.

Rick
Logged

NW Arkansas
1959 GM 4104  No. 4115
1972 Grumman Kurbmaster Stepvan Conversion
1957 Airstream 13 panel Overlander
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: April 01, 2011, 10:24:41 PM »

Lug nuts for stud center wheels will be different than hub center.

Rick

  Are the wheels physically different? Or are all aluminum wheels already hub centric?

  I was doing some searching, and there seems some debate between 12r and 11r tires. 12r are wider, but in a 22.5 it appears a 12r is taller. So I should also be asking about wheel "rim" width as well. 
Logged
TedsBUSted
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 236




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2011, 11:28:03 PM »

In the US, the most common stud-piloted wheel is a Budd type. To center the wheel with the hub, stud-piloted wheels use a countersunk seat at each wheel nut. Budd type wheels use a double nut arrangement with dual wheels. Hardware parts for aluminum wheels are usually longer than steel wheel hardware, to compensate for an aluminum wheel's thicker mounting area.

The most common hub-piloted wheel is an Accuride. The Accuride wheel is centered to the hub via the the wheel's center hole. With hub-pilot, wheel stud holes are simple flat-faced  through holes, since there is no need for a countersunk hole to center the wheel. Hub-pilot mounting uses a single wheel nut with both dual as well as single arrangements.

Stud-pilot and hub-pilot wheel types are not interchangeable and use different hardware and hubs. For quick ID, with duals, Budd type's hex outer nut and a square headed inner nut are both visible while assembled. Meanwhile, hub-pilot wheels are retained by a single hex nut arrangement, using an integral flange washer.

Steel and aluminum can be mixed. 12r uses a wider rim than 11r width.
Yes, in most areas 22.5 is the more common truck tire size, however, that often makes for bargains on nice used 24.5 size.

Hope it helps.

Ted
Logged

Bus polygamist. Always room for another, especially 04 or 06 are welcome. NE from Chicago, across the pond.
RoyJ
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 176





Ignore
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2011, 11:31:12 PM »

Yes, the wheels are physically different, the stud pilot wheels have chamfers on each lug hole, used to position and center the wheel. You'll need rounded lug nuts like Rick mentioned.

Aluminum doesn't necessarily mean hub centric, there are still aluminum stud pilot wheels around, commonly referred to "Budd" wheels.

I'm in a difficult situation myself. My rears are steel 22.5s on the inside, and Alcoa 20s on the outside. 11R20, which is the same diameter as 12R22.5, are just about impossible to find these days.

12R22.5 provide the proper gearing for a lot of classic coaches, but I hate to use such an uncommon size. 11R22.5 is a little shorter, and my coach is already geared low - 2000 rpm @ 60mph. I'm debating whether to go 24.5s or not, which provides much better gearing, but meaning I have to find 4 24.5 "Budd" wheels. In the end, I think I'll just make things simple, and get the largest diameter 11R22.5 I can find.

BTW, if you have a 35', or even some 40', you'll have zero weight issues with an 11R tire.
Logged
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12087




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2011, 06:44:34 AM »

The USA is the only place you will find 24.5 tires the world standard is a 22.5 it won't be long before the 24.5 are gone or be so expensive you cannot afford those and everything in truck and bus tires will be metric just to confuse us lol stick with 22.5 wheels fwiw I always ran the 12r/22.5 my Eagle came with that size and I never changed and now they are popular again 


good luck 
Logged

Live each day like it was your last,one day it will be
Jriddle
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 653





Ignore
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2011, 07:42:35 AM »

Now that we or I have a good handle on the wheel style. I would like more clarification on tire size. I know 12r tires are wider than 11r tires. What about 315/80r/22.5? I have not priced them but would think these would be even bigger than the 12r and also cost more. What about truck tire sizes? One would probably do well by looking for good take offs from a truck. We don't do that many miles and the tires would dryrot before they wore out if we bought new.

John
Logged

If It Can't Be Grown Then It Has To Be Mined
John Riddle
Wells NV
1984 MC9
TedsBUSted
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 236




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2011, 08:07:35 AM »

Ooops - I meant to use Unimount and not Accuride to describe hub-piloted wheels.

As far as 24.5 popularity, again, it depends on the region and vocation, but I don't think that either size is going away for a long time.

Of course a bargain on a nice set of used tires will keep a hobby bus rolling for a very long time.
With that, I wouldn't shy away from a deal on nice used 24.5 rubber, or for that matter, any tubeless size that has a workable weight capacity and rolling diameter.

Ted



« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 08:15:32 AM by TedsBUSted » Logged

Bus polygamist. Always room for another, especially 04 or 06 are welcome. NE from Chicago, across the pond.
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 08:47:46 AM »

Now that we or I have a good handle on the wheel style. I would like more clarification on tire size. I know 12r tires are wider than 11r tires. One would probably do well by looking for good take offs from a truck. We don't do that many miles and the tires would dryrot before they wore out if we bought new.

John

  This is my thinking as well, and knowing what to look for, and what size is most common.  A temp/pressure monitor on the fronts doesnt seem such a bad idea. Tires dont normally explode without warning.
  
  So it looks like I already have stud piloted steel BUDD wheels. Do I understand then, that BUDD aluminum stud piloted wheels will go right on using the same nuts, and are probably the easiest and cheapest to find? Which width fits which tire?? 8 inch for 11r, is that correct.

  That I need to be careful of the stud length, I understand that.

  
Logged
thomasinnv
Derrick Thomas
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 742


I may be nuts, but only for buses


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 08:54:20 AM »

not sure about your bus, but alot of people have to change to longer studs when they go to aluminum wheels.  Aluminum wheels are thicker than steel.  Some have been able to go with steel on the inside dual and aluminum on the outside without changinf the studs.  Not sure about the front.  Clifford or somebody else will have the quick answer for ya.
Logged

There are three kinds of people in this world....those that make things happen, those that watch things happen, and those that just wonder what the heck is happening. Which one are you?

1977 MCI Crusader MC-8
8V71N/740
95% converted (they're never really done, are they?)
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2011, 09:00:36 AM »

I always ran the 12r/22.5 my Eagle came with that size and I never changed and now they are popular again 
good luck 

  I read many comments of running 11r's on 35 footers, some argued its a marginal tire, others say the 12r offers better flotation/traction in a campground, still others talk of the 11r wasting fuel by spinning so much faster. If the 12r is more readily available, wouldnt that be the best tire choice?
Logged
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2011, 09:04:20 AM »

Some have been able to go with steel on the inside dual and aluminum on the outside without changinf the studs.  Not sure about the front.  Clifford or somebody else will have the quick answer for ya.

  If ive read correctly, we want to maintain 5 to 6 threads after the nuts torqued? And if I saw what I believe, the studs can be knocked out without removing the front hub?
Logged
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12087




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2011, 09:46:02 AM »

You need remove the front hubs to do it right then check the bearings and seals as for the rear just buy the longer inner nuts no need to change the studs in rear.
MCI front studs are hard to find in the aftermarket world you will find some close that people use but I don't and when calling MCI for the front studs be setting down not as far to fall lol and there are 20 of those puppies It is not a problem running steel wheels against aluminum wheels buses (inner steel) are shipped from the manufactures setup that way so are heavy duty trucks


good luck
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 10:01:17 AM by luvrbus » Logged

Live each day like it was your last,one day it will be
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3490





Ignore
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2011, 02:15:57 PM »

John,

The 315/80r/22.5 is almost an inch wider overall than the 12R x22.5 and probably larger in diameter as well. The 315 or 12 is the overall width of the tire in mm.  (Divide 315mm by 24,5 to get inches).

artv,

If your bus came with 1100x20 tires originally there is no point in installing 12R, that is tire overkill since our conversions rarely come close to the original gross weights of passenger buses.

A bunch of 35 footers came with 1100x20 tires, I believe up through the 4106. (Don't know about those foreign MCIs!!) My4104 came with 1100x20 and my 4107 came with either 1200x20 or 12Rx22.5, I'm not sure which, but they both have appx the same load rating. The 22.5 just means it is tubeless.

I think you'll find that the 11Rx22.5 is much more common than the 12R because so many trucks use it.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12087




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2011, 02:32:25 PM »

Most trucks run the 295/80/22.5  fwiw

good luck
Logged

Live each day like it was your last,one day it will be
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2011, 07:03:43 PM »

Most trucks run the 295/80/22.5  fwiw

good luck

  On another thread from a year ago you also chose the 12r for the MC5, you seem rather confident in that size. Others appear equally confident in the 11r.
 
  Let me ask the question different, which tire would you drive to Alaska?

  What width wheel do we need for each? Will the 11 fit a rim a 12 will, but not the other direction??

 

 
Logged
Seayfam
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 453





Ignore
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2011, 07:19:50 PM »

Quote
Let me ask the question different, which tire would you drive to Alaska?



My bus is over 40,000 lbs and it has been Alaska to Idaho many of times towing 8,000 lb trailer and all over Alaska on frost heaves and gravel.
I run Toyo 11R24.5 and never a problem. I run the tires at 120psi.

Gary
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 07:58:32 PM by Seayfam » Logged

Gary Seay (location Alaska)
1969 MCI MC-6 unit# 20006
8V92 turbo 740 auto
more pics and information here     "  www.my69mci-6.blogspot.com  "
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12087




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2011, 07:46:24 PM »

I don't think you can have too much tire both will work on the 8.25 wide wheel 12R would be my choice of tire for Alaska,if you are going to run 11r/22.5 or 11/ 24.5 buy the H rated tire you will be amazed at some of the tire ratings people install on a bus,then I see tires that were rated more than the wheel was rated for.
I drove my bus a lot of miles every year 12 to 20,000 miles and tires I did not skimp on JMW, and tires are sold by the pound not the size that is a sells thing lol, and I am a big Toyo fan best tire on the market if you buy the right tire


good luck
Logged

Live each day like it was your last,one day it will be
Iceni John
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 780




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2011, 11:14:08 PM »

(Divide 315mm by 24,5 to get inches).
There's 25.4mm per inch, so 315mm = 12.4".   12" = almost 305mm.   Does that 10mm (just over 3/8") make any practical difference?   Maybe, maybe not.   I'm curious if my Michelin XCE 12R22.5 actually measure 12" wide, and if so is that tread width or casing width?   I'll have to measure them tomorrow  -  OK, it's just another feeble excuse to spend another day tiddling around with my bus!

John
« Last Edit: April 02, 2011, 11:16:58 PM by Iceni John » Logged

1990 Crown 2R-40N-552:  6V92TAC, DDEC II, HT740, Jake.      Hecho en Chino.     
Behind the Orange Curtain, SoCal.
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2011, 01:51:57 AM »

 OK, it's just another feeble excuse to spend another day tiddling around with my bus!

John

  This Bus thang, its not like shipwrights desease, is it?
Logged
Jackling54
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 32


1954' crown supercoach


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2011, 10:13:23 AM »

I couldn't  pass up commenting on the beautiful picture seayfam !!!! Cant wait to get the crown finished to take my own picture of that mountain.. Grin
Logged

"I'd rather people hate me for who I am than love me for who I am not" - Kurt Cobain
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2011, 10:23:34 AM »

I couldn't  pass up commenting on the beautiful picture seayfam !!

 I forgot to comment, and I appologise. It seems owning a Bus is quite a big adventure in itself, as is a trip to Alaska. To do both really takes some work,and my hat is off to you.
Logged
Bussman84
My first love is my 1961 Int. Skoolie
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 61





Ignore
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2011, 07:03:03 PM »

Someone on here my have more experience with this so I too am interested in your input, a buddy of mine who has been a OTR truck driver for many years told me not to mix the steel and aluminum as they would seize together over time. Thoughts? Undecided

Billy
Logged

1961 Int. Skoolie 345v-8 w/4spd.
1979 MC-9 8v71 HT740
Southcentral, Kansas
TedsBUSted
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 236




Ignore
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2011, 07:14:10 PM »

Aluminum and carbon steel aren't a particularly corrosive combination and are commonly mated.
And after all, an aluminum wheel would still mate to a steel hub/drum and be retained by steel hardware.

Even with some corrosion, it would take a tremendous amount of  "lot rot" to attack any wheel's flange surface, by then there will be plenty of worse problems and it still won't be that the two are stuck together.

Ted
Logged

Bus polygamist. Always room for another, especially 04 or 06 are welcome. NE from Chicago, across the pond.
NEO/Russ
NEO/Russ
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 83




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2011, 07:42:15 PM »

There are composite, 10 hole, spacer discs that are about .080" (I Think) thick.  These are used on HDT's between the steel drums and the aluminum rims to reduce corrosion.  I've talked to Accuride about using three of these; one between drum and inner wheel, one between inner wheel and Centramatic and the third between Centramatic and the outer wheel.  They say OK, not sure about it holding the 450 ft lb of torque but I'll try it one of these days.  Otherwise the galvanize on the Centramatics make the rims look bad where they are sandwiched together.  I got mine at Truck Pro and as I recall they are about $10 each. 

Just my opinion.....Russ
Logged

Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4544


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2011, 05:41:35 AM »

My 5C is on 12R22.5 tires.  It helps the gearing compared to 11R22.5, it was the OEM fitment although other tires were also options per the data card on the bus.  Overkill?  Who cares?  H-rated tires like I have, the load/pressure chart doesn't go low enough for the load on the rear duals.  I run them at a fairly low pressure - 80 rear, 85 front, it helps the ride and the handling/steering (I noticed a big improvement in both when I went from the 105 psi the previous owner ran), I carry a spare, my local shop can get them for me no problem, it's still a common bus tire, so I feel like it's a good choice.

Brian
Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!