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Author Topic: GMC 4104 head rebuild question (machine shop mistake?) Any mechanics out there?  (Read 6819 times)
irstaxhelp
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« on: April 12, 2011, 08:30:00 AM »

Mobile mechanic R&R head and two of the fixed studs not sure of the exact name but they are on the rockers and have no threads but pressed in.  After installing the head one broke off when tightening the rockers and the other rocker got stuck .  I am not a mechanic so the names of the parts might be wrong but I can post a picture if it helps. 
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« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2011, 08:54:29 AM »

If you have over a 1/2 of stud showing DD has a tool to remove those if not they have to be drilled out,2 valve head or 4 valve ?


good lick
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« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2011, 04:05:16 PM »

well luvrbus has been around these old 2 strokes way longer than I have so I'll have to take his word for it.  Next time I have the valve cover off I'll give it a lick.
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irstaxhelp
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 08:50:00 AM »



So it is the new oversize stid put in with the locktite all over it.  Two were bad.  Shouldn't the head shop caught this?  Two of them were bad on broke when tightning the rocker and the other jammed when the bus was started up
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 09:05:08 AM »

How did you break a bridge stud those are set off the engine and before you install the rocker arms ?

good luck
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 09:13:47 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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irstaxhelp
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 03:10:27 PM »

The mechanic installed the head then when tightning the rocker arm one broke and then after fixing the one they started the engine and the other one broke.  Shouldn't these have been checked or replaced when they rebuilt the head?   Why would these break?
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 03:44:41 PM »

I cannot answer why they broke I have never broken one but have removed and replaced a few for wear but not that way, are you sure the injector is going to tighten down with that setup looks close to me fwiw shops just replace those because of wear that looks like work to me drilling and tapping to replace one lol me I think your guy screwed up 

good luck
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 03:52:06 PM »

That's what I was thinking.  He could not get the remaining pieces out so had to drill the hole out and buy the oversize and tap in.  I have not received a bill yet but when I do I am not sure, if he charges me for the stud replacement, that I should have to pay...  If I do not pay I would like to tell him why.  That is why I am seeking clarification here.   Good luck...   huh!  LOL
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 09:30:24 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong.....and i hope I am...but your photo seems to show some SERIOUS shop dirt dust OR what ?
We're talking engine killer.
were I you I would either eat it or STOP until you sort out the reasons.this could perpetuate at a very unfortunate time.
Those valve bridge studs would have to be SERIOUSLY worn to warrant any attention/change.
I carry my 30 year old Kent Moore rack/gov adj tools and I have NEVER seen what you got.
If one broke when they started it......well use your imagination.
Somethings are bent,how or why they would be telling me.
and really ReliBilt are cheaper.
Think about it. eopoxy does not take well to heat.....




So it is the new oversize stid put in with the locktite all over it.  Two were bad.  Shouldn't the head shop caught this?  Two of them were bad on broke when tightning the rocker and the other jammed when the bus was started up
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« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 06:10:35 AM »

I really feel bad for but I don't think your guy knows how to adjust the bridges those need the same clearance on both valves they can be a pain then you adjust the valve clearence after they are set.
I would not be afraid to say you probably have bent valves now and I have never saw a bridge stud screwed in to the head I question that repair may work may not just not the right way to do one JMO and now he has over sized the hole by tapping I hope it works out for you

good luck
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« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2011, 07:46:23 AM »

Listen to what you are being told by a couple hundred years of experience.  They are being kind and patient in their tone but the news seems to certainly be grim.

STOP ALL WORK!  When the likes of LUVRBUS says he has "never seen....".   That is the worst news possible.  You need to find out where you are in this.

GET YOUR STUFF TO A SAFE LOCATION.

Disassociate yourself from that mechanic.  You cannot afford to allow him any further involvement.  He seems dishonest at best.  His workmanship is deplorable in the pics.  From what I read he has invented new ways to destroy your engine as this crew is hard to leave speechless.  Apparently, this man has misrepresented himself to you and that is a "lie".  When people lie to your face it is the worst of signs.

Get competent help to access "your" current position and that of your engine.  No matter what you have invested to date, you don't want to throw any more money at this thing if there is little or no hope of a satisfactory outcome.  I suggest you ask this board for recommendations of a mech in your area.  And where not to go as well.  I would suggest a small shop with an impeccable reputation such as Choo Choo Gar.

If you get a judgement against this bird for damages in "Small Claims" that should short circuit any claims he might have for lost wages or materials.  If what you say and show in pics is true then the Judge should go all weepy on your behalf.  The two "shoulds" in this para are operative.  Just spit ball'n here.

If the engine was started with dirt and debris in the oil lines you are probably looking at a bad engine.  I would not put another dime in that Puppy till I pulled a bearing and checked for "crap" imbedded in the bearing surface that would acts as a cutting tool on your crank.

I wish I had better feelings about this.....I don't.  prepare to open your wallet for repairs.  When the guys here say "Good Luck with this" it means something like "abandon all hope" as far as I have been able to tell.  That doesn't mean there is no solution....it means that, like so many others before you, in all probability, you are about to make decisions that will haunt you.  Beware the "solution" that involves a "compromise" with the mech that allows him to recover all charges and get a BONUS and a letter from you that thanks him for his professionalism and skill....you know....a COMPROMISE that considers the expense of being in business and all the hidden costs of serving the public and ....wretch....wretch....puke.

Timidly,

John
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irstaxhelp
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« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2011, 08:03:09 AM »

Okay so sounds like I need to know of a good mechanic in the San Diego area.  Anyone know of one.

they did clean out the head after the picture was taken.  They used a magnet and blew it out the best they could. 
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« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2011, 08:05:41 AM »

JohnEd, just because I never saw a stud installed using that method does not make it gospel 

good luck
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« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2011, 08:09:16 AM »

I have seen replacement screw-in bridge studs, but if the mechanic was tightening the bridges without holding them in a fixture or with another wrench then I understand how he broke them off.  And like Cliffford says he likely bent the valve stems.  Not only that, but if he is doing stupid stuff like that I would not trust his bridge adjustments which in turn can lead to sucking a valve when the keepers come flying off.
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« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2011, 08:38:30 AM »

JohnEd, just because I never saw a stud installed using that method does not make it gospel 

good luck

That isn't the way I "see" it, Clifford.  Trust me on this....Please. Huh Roll Eyes Grin

John
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 08:40:42 AM »

I have seen replacement screw-in bridge studs, but if the mechanic was tightening the bridges without holding them in a fixture or with another wrench then I understand how he broke them off.  And like Cliffford says he likely bent the valve stems.  Not only that, but if he is doing stupid stuff like that I would not trust his bridge adjustments which in turn can lead to sucking a valve when the keepers come flying off.

I rest my case! Wink Smiley
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 10:20:11 AM »

Okay so after I took those pictures the mechanic came back and buttoned it up (I did not watch him since I was out of town) started it up and it ran fine he said.  I then upon returning home took off the valve cover and ran my finger on the top of the head and the oil has tiny particles in it.  What say you guys.  Anything else to check for?
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 10:41:52 AM »

John,

Santee is a "lower rent" side of SD.  There must be independents out there that are competent and trustworthy.  You might ask if they will be willing to give you a statement on the conditions they find in their process of repair.  You seem to be agile with a camera and really good at it as well. Huh  I want lessons on that.

I used  to have a LOT of work done in Chula Vista and San Yasidro.  The Mex's have more than their fair share of qualified people in every profession and they are a tad less greedy.  My experience is that they are not too good at anything that requires them to break new ground or do a lot of book reading and computation.  They are past masters at watching someone do it correctly and then repeating the process accurately and completely ver bait'm.  I am English, German, American Indian and Jew but I did adopt a Mex daughter.  Not prejudiced is what I am saying.

You seem to need a tow and that can be breathtaking.  Might try to find a shop that will give you a "superb rate" on the tow to get it to their shop......idea?

Does it still get hot in Santee in the summer?

John
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »

Yes it does get hot in the summer still.  But with the exception of last year it has been relatively cool.  also when they are cold at the beach in the winter we have sun so it is all give and take I guess!    I talked to the mechanic after getting all the info from this list and he is a nice guy and did not get defensive but said that the oil filter will pick up the small debri and that they worked very hard to get out as much as they could.  Also he doubts anything big got through but the screen in the pickup would catch that if there were. 

The dowel is called a bridge dowel and he told me the second one jamed do to poor oil flow do to mechanic error on his employees part.  Again assuring me that the fix with the oversize dowel is the appropriate fix. 
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 02:53:56 PM »

Weds Thurs, Fri ?

Ain't no frigg'n way! First off you don't just let particles like that go into the engine in the first place! Second what the oil filter or the pick up screen will catch them? Hey while yer buy'n can we sell ya some ocean front property about 15 miles south of Flagstaff, AZ?

Really ya gotta be kid'n me. Did they tell you that the JB Weld or similar epoxy slopped all over the place was "Loctite"? Wholly mother of back yard screwballs! I'd get a competent DD mech out there pronto! And have him document all the obvious problems he finds before, during and after the tear down and proper repair on that baby so you'll have evidence & documentation for court!
JMHO FWIW!
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2011, 04:40:54 PM »

Here are a couple of San Diego members that always post good information. 

boogiethecat

H3Jim

and

Bob at HB Industries
http://www.hb-industries.com/


Good luck. 
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2011, 08:42:59 PM »

   I talked to the mechanic      said that the oil filter will pick up the small debris and that they worked very hard to get out as much as they could.  Also he doubts anything big got through but the screen in the pickup would catch that if there were.  

   If they worked very hard the motor wouldnt have all that crap inside it. You do realise the path to the filter is only through the pump, dont you? That that debris has to be flushed over and through the entire engine and down into the sump, before the pump can send it to the filter? That ALL the debris in the engine has to go through your oil pump? That the pump will never pass 100% of it, that some will become trapped behind the pump gears and destroy it? That if there is enough debris, the filter will clog and bypass and send unfiltered oil contaminated with metal filings through your entire engine, directly to every pressure fed bearing in the engine? Including the blower and alternator?
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2011, 09:20:33 PM »

A Nerve has been touched here.  i think it is everyone's dread that their engine fails so completely that an out of frame overhaul is needed.  Things are pointing that way here but that fat lady hasn't yet sung.  We, and I mean especially Art and BK, have the best of intentions and wishes for you.  Many of us will move into concern levels usually reserved for family members and ourselves.

Get it outta there and get a good mech involved.  I think LUVRBUS mentioned a outfit that rebuilds heads and has a solid rep....."Reliabilt?".  Whatever.  I don't understand all this talk about bent valves but i know this group and I would just take it to the bank and replace the head with a rebuilt item.   Or items.

At this point you can't lose much.  Get the new heads installed.  Can a plug be removed from the main oil galley?  If so then flush it out with gas and then flush it out with ......wait for it.....Easy Off and use a bottle brush and high pressure washer.  Do that with the crank and rod bearings pulled.  All machine work gets a final rinse with soap and water and then is quickly oiled at any shop.  Expect this to not work.  i have done it twice and I only delayed the inevitable failures that led to making scrap iron out of the block and crank.

The debris from the contamination possibly didn't go down the oil lines in the block or didn't get pumped into the main oil galley....check this by pulling the oil pump and looking for any fresh score marks.

Are you mechanical and do you have tools?

I bought my first house in Santee in 72.  Nice place and really hot but really nice in the winter.  Nice chatting with you.

John
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 07:03:52 AM »

I also would just have grabbed another head from the wrecking yard, rebuilt it n installed it immediately. That would have fixed any problems with the head pictured.
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 08:10:15 AM »

JohnEd fwiw I have all my machine work done on the engines by 1 outfit in Gilbert AZ (Higley) Baker Machinery the guy there Tom is the best around charges me 435 bucks to redo a 8v92 head and it is done right back to the OM specs he also does all of WW Williams in Phoenix machine work his shop is spotless

good luck
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2011, 12:45:59 PM »

JohnEd fwiw I have all my machine work done on the engines by 1 outfit in Gilbert AZ (Higley) Baker Machinery the guy there Tom is the best around charges me 435 bucks to redo a 8v92 head and it is done right back to the OM specs he also does all of WW Williams in Phoenix machine work his shop is spotless

good luck

I called WWW at the 800 number and they refered me to the DD dealer here in Eugene, Orygun.  They want $1098 for a rebuilt 8 V 92 head you can get for $435.   FWIW....was that a joke?  That is a savings of $663 by using your contact so "its worth" zactly $663 for those of you that are 'rithmatic challenged.  Anyone that doubts your monetary worth...send them to me. I know you have saved others more simply with superb council.  All that other character stuff is still up in the air though, Cliffey. Wink Grin Grin  (anyone that thinks I was in the remote serious with that last comment ...shut up now.)

FWIW....really! Clifford, AKA EF Hutton.

thanks,

John
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2011, 05:10:43 PM »


I called WWW at the 800 number and they refered me to the DD dealer here in Eugene, Orygun.  They want $1098 for a rebuilt 8 V 92 head you can get for $435.  John

  When I worked at the car dealership we marked everything up 100% over cost. Every factory part, every rebuilt we got locally, whatever it was and wherever it came from. Dealerships make money on both ends, thats how they work. Volvo dealerships were known (in Minnesota anyway) to mark up parts 125 to 150% over their cost, and ive heard MB delerships mark up only 50-60% FWIW.

  In WWW's defense, if anything goes wrong with that head, they have to stand behind the labor to R&R it.
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2011, 07:28:48 PM »

Art,

I am with you on this....almost 100%.  I have never begrudghed a man his wage or a propriator his profit margin.  Usually the system sorts all this out without any help from me....the rates, that is.

The DD dealer told me he had two on the shelf.  He also said that DD two strokes, unlike my inferral, were still out there in number and he moved quite a bit of stuff to support them.  logging industry evidently.  His price applied to any that he had to order and he quoted a 10 to 14 day delivery.  Given that he would order the head and wouldn't have to pay for it for 30 days he would clear that profit of $663.

Can you tell me that a shop will stand behind another shops or vendors workmanship.  My warranties have always stated that "he" warrantied his labor only and that parts were the responsibility of the vendor.  The laws of "agency" don't seem to apply in the automotive world.  I assumed that the same would apply in the truck world.  My vendor warranties all have stipulated that the warranty was for replacement alone and did not cover damages.  Labor to install the part is "damages" in this case.

I am fine with being wrong and would appreciate your pointing out where I may be mistaken.

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2011, 10:15:34 PM »

Art,

I am with you on this....almost 100%.  Can you tell me that a shop will stand behind another shops or vendors workmanship. 
John

  I cant speak for other dealers, but have heard its generally the same. Most independents charge more realistic prices for parts, but dont warrant labor. My understanding is Dealerships dont want to deal that way, even on locally rebuilt parts. We put a Gopher rebuilt Motor in a not yet 1 year old Jeep, when the Twins ballplayer/owner ran it out of oil and it was no longer a warrantee issue. But think about this, it was 1985. Plain old Champion plugs $7 each. New wires $79. Cap $24. Oil Filter $17. Air filter $26, bulk Pennzoil dino oil from a 55 gallon barrel at $6 quart, etc., etc., the bill was almost $5k for a motor you could buy yourself for under $1000. Heck yeah we stood behind it.

  That wasnt the only time. If you came in and needed an alternator for a Jeep, and they said new one was almost $700, but they could sell you a rebuilt for $230 plus labor, dont you think they would stand behind the labor, on an alternator you could walk into the same rebuilder, that he would sell you for $75??

  Otherwise your correct, most independents dont charge much over retail on parts, but dont warrant the labor either. For WWW to make over $600 profit on a rebuilt head from their own exclusive rebuilder, I cant imagine they wouldnt stand behind the labor. 
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 04:16:20 AM »

Pretty sure Clifford meant $435 for rebuilding a head, purchasing a head at Williams is a different story.
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« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2011, 06:03:14 AM »

I think John got a outright price no exchange Stewart and Stevenson charges 700 each exchange for the rebuilt 8v92 heads,they are over 3 grand each for a brand new bare 8v92 head


good luck
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« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2011, 08:24:50 AM »

Pretty sure Clifford meant $435 for rebuilding a head, purchasing a head at Williams is a different story.


  Actually, purchasing that exact same $435 head at Williams for $1100 is a different story. But if they stand behind the labor to R&R it if it farts its a different story too.
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« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2011, 03:37:04 PM »

Okay found a guy named Vance Butler that has worked on these for over 30 years and has 100's of engines on his property.  It was not as bad as it seemed and so this nightmare is officially put away.  I want to thank you all so much for the help.  I am so glad you are all here.   

Perhaps I will make it to Quartzide this year if that is how you spell it and meet some of you guys..........
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« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2011, 08:25:32 PM »

Okay found a guy named Vance Butler that has worked on these for over 30 years and has 100's of engines on his property.  It was not as bad as it seemed and so this nightmare is officially put away.  I want to thank you all so much for the help.  I am so glad you are all here.   

Perhaps I will make it to Quartzide this year if that is how you spell it and meet some of you guys..........


Ha!  The Mother Lode....so to speak.  Hope you get to advertise Vance Butler's name and bonefides to the board.  With all those engines he must be a source of parts as well.

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2011, 08:45:54 AM »

Vance Butler.  Mechanics mechanic!   Acres of engines and transmissions.  619-672-7009  HB Industries get their parts from him too.
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« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2011, 11:50:29 PM »

John Leslie,

Thank you for posting.

John
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« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2011, 09:25:48 AM »

My bus started to not idle today.  You have to push the accelerator down 1/2 way to get it to engage.  I traced the linkage back and the throttle assembly is fine so must be the governor if I am ever spelling it right!    Anyone tell me how to troubleshot and and tips on fixing?
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