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Author Topic: GMC 4104 head rebuild question (machine shop mistake?) Any mechanics out there?  (Read 6667 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2011, 08:40:42 AM »

I have seen replacement screw-in bridge studs, but if the mechanic was tightening the bridges without holding them in a fixture or with another wrench then I understand how he broke them off.  And like Cliffford says he likely bent the valve stems.  Not only that, but if he is doing stupid stuff like that I would not trust his bridge adjustments which in turn can lead to sucking a valve when the keepers come flying off.

I rest my case! Wink Smiley
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irstaxhelp
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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2011, 10:20:11 AM »

Okay so after I took those pictures the mechanic came back and buttoned it up (I did not watch him since I was out of town) started it up and it ran fine he said.  I then upon returning home took off the valve cover and ran my finger on the top of the head and the oil has tiny particles in it.  What say you guys.  Anything else to check for?
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JohnEd
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« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2011, 10:41:52 AM »

John,

Santee is a "lower rent" side of SD.  There must be independents out there that are competent and trustworthy.  You might ask if they will be willing to give you a statement on the conditions they find in their process of repair.  You seem to be agile with a camera and really good at it as well. Huh  I want lessons on that.

I used  to have a LOT of work done in Chula Vista and San Yasidro.  The Mex's have more than their fair share of qualified people in every profession and they are a tad less greedy.  My experience is that they are not too good at anything that requires them to break new ground or do a lot of book reading and computation.  They are past masters at watching someone do it correctly and then repeating the process accurately and completely ver bait'm.  I am English, German, American Indian and Jew but I did adopt a Mex daughter.  Not prejudiced is what I am saying.

You seem to need a tow and that can be breathtaking.  Might try to find a shop that will give you a "superb rate" on the tow to get it to their shop......idea?

Does it still get hot in Santee in the summer?

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
irstaxhelp
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« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2011, 11:10:20 AM »

Yes it does get hot in the summer still.  But with the exception of last year it has been relatively cool.  also when they are cold at the beach in the winter we have sun so it is all give and take I guess!    I talked to the mechanic after getting all the info from this list and he is a nice guy and did not get defensive but said that the oil filter will pick up the small debri and that they worked very hard to get out as much as they could.  Also he doubts anything big got through but the screen in the pickup would catch that if there were. 

The dowel is called a bridge dowel and he told me the second one jamed do to poor oil flow do to mechanic error on his employees part.  Again assuring me that the fix with the oversize dowel is the appropriate fix. 
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Busted Knuckle
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« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2011, 02:53:56 PM »

Weds Thurs, Fri ?

Ain't no frigg'n way! First off you don't just let particles like that go into the engine in the first place! Second what the oil filter or the pick up screen will catch them? Hey while yer buy'n can we sell ya some ocean front property about 15 miles south of Flagstaff, AZ?

Really ya gotta be kid'n me. Did they tell you that the JB Weld or similar epoxy slopped all over the place was "Loctite"? Wholly mother of back yard screwballs! I'd get a competent DD mech out there pronto! And have him document all the obvious problems he finds before, during and after the tear down and proper repair on that baby so you'll have evidence & documentation for court!
JMHO FWIW!
 Shocked  BK   Undecided Undecided
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2011, 04:40:54 PM »

Here are a couple of San Diego members that always post good information. 

boogiethecat

H3Jim

and

Bob at HB Industries
http://www.hb-industries.com/


Good luck. 
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2011, 08:42:59 PM »

   I talked to the mechanic      said that the oil filter will pick up the small debris and that they worked very hard to get out as much as they could.  Also he doubts anything big got through but the screen in the pickup would catch that if there were.  

   If they worked very hard the motor wouldnt have all that crap inside it. You do realise the path to the filter is only through the pump, dont you? That that debris has to be flushed over and through the entire engine and down into the sump, before the pump can send it to the filter? That ALL the debris in the engine has to go through your oil pump? That the pump will never pass 100% of it, that some will become trapped behind the pump gears and destroy it? That if there is enough debris, the filter will clog and bypass and send unfiltered oil contaminated with metal filings through your entire engine, directly to every pressure fed bearing in the engine? Including the blower and alternator?
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JohnEd
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2011, 09:20:33 PM »

A Nerve has been touched here.  i think it is everyone's dread that their engine fails so completely that an out of frame overhaul is needed.  Things are pointing that way here but that fat lady hasn't yet sung.  We, and I mean especially Art and BK, have the best of intentions and wishes for you.  Many of us will move into concern levels usually reserved for family members and ourselves.

Get it outta there and get a good mech involved.  I think LUVRBUS mentioned a outfit that rebuilds heads and has a solid rep....."Reliabilt?".  Whatever.  I don't understand all this talk about bent valves but i know this group and I would just take it to the bank and replace the head with a rebuilt item.   Or items.

At this point you can't lose much.  Get the new heads installed.  Can a plug be removed from the main oil galley?  If so then flush it out with gas and then flush it out with ......wait for it.....Easy Off and use a bottle brush and high pressure washer.  Do that with the crank and rod bearings pulled.  All machine work gets a final rinse with soap and water and then is quickly oiled at any shop.  Expect this to not work.  i have done it twice and I only delayed the inevitable failures that led to making scrap iron out of the block and crank.

The debris from the contamination possibly didn't go down the oil lines in the block or didn't get pumped into the main oil galley....check this by pulling the oil pump and looking for any fresh score marks.

Are you mechanical and do you have tools?

I bought my first house in Santee in 72.  Nice place and really hot but really nice in the winter.  Nice chatting with you.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2011, 07:03:52 AM »

I also would just have grabbed another head from the wrecking yard, rebuilt it n installed it immediately. That would have fixed any problems with the head pictured.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2011, 08:10:15 AM »

JohnEd fwiw I have all my machine work done on the engines by 1 outfit in Gilbert AZ (Higley) Baker Machinery the guy there Tom is the best around charges me 435 bucks to redo a 8v92 head and it is done right back to the OM specs he also does all of WW Williams in Phoenix machine work his shop is spotless

good luck
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JohnEd
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« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2011, 12:45:59 PM »

JohnEd fwiw I have all my machine work done on the engines by 1 outfit in Gilbert AZ (Higley) Baker Machinery the guy there Tom is the best around charges me 435 bucks to redo a 8v92 head and it is done right back to the OM specs he also does all of WW Williams in Phoenix machine work his shop is spotless

good luck

I called WWW at the 800 number and they refered me to the DD dealer here in Eugene, Orygun.  They want $1098 for a rebuilt 8 V 92 head you can get for $435.   FWIW....was that a joke?  That is a savings of $663 by using your contact so "its worth" zactly $663 for those of you that are 'rithmatic challenged.  Anyone that doubts your monetary worth...send them to me. I know you have saved others more simply with superb council.  All that other character stuff is still up in the air though, Cliffey. Wink Grin Grin  (anyone that thinks I was in the remote serious with that last comment ...shut up now.)

FWIW....really! Clifford, AKA EF Hutton.

thanks,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2011, 05:10:43 PM »


I called WWW at the 800 number and they refered me to the DD dealer here in Eugene, Orygun.  They want $1098 for a rebuilt 8 V 92 head you can get for $435.  John

  When I worked at the car dealership we marked everything up 100% over cost. Every factory part, every rebuilt we got locally, whatever it was and wherever it came from. Dealerships make money on both ends, thats how they work. Volvo dealerships were known (in Minnesota anyway) to mark up parts 125 to 150% over their cost, and ive heard MB delerships mark up only 50-60% FWIW.

  In WWW's defense, if anything goes wrong with that head, they have to stand behind the labor to R&R it.
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JohnEd
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« Reply #27 on: April 15, 2011, 07:28:48 PM »

Art,

I am with you on this....almost 100%.  I have never begrudghed a man his wage or a propriator his profit margin.  Usually the system sorts all this out without any help from me....the rates, that is.

The DD dealer told me he had two on the shelf.  He also said that DD two strokes, unlike my inferral, were still out there in number and he moved quite a bit of stuff to support them.  logging industry evidently.  His price applied to any that he had to order and he quoted a 10 to 14 day delivery.  Given that he would order the head and wouldn't have to pay for it for 30 days he would clear that profit of $663.

Can you tell me that a shop will stand behind another shops or vendors workmanship.  My warranties have always stated that "he" warrantied his labor only and that parts were the responsibility of the vendor.  The laws of "agency" don't seem to apply in the automotive world.  I assumed that the same would apply in the truck world.  My vendor warranties all have stipulated that the warranty was for replacement alone and did not cover damages.  Labor to install the part is "damages" in this case.

I am fine with being wrong and would appreciate your pointing out where I may be mistaken.

Thanks,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #28 on: April 15, 2011, 10:15:34 PM »

Art,

I am with you on this....almost 100%.  Can you tell me that a shop will stand behind another shops or vendors workmanship. 
John

  I cant speak for other dealers, but have heard its generally the same. Most independents charge more realistic prices for parts, but dont warrant labor. My understanding is Dealerships dont want to deal that way, even on locally rebuilt parts. We put a Gopher rebuilt Motor in a not yet 1 year old Jeep, when the Twins ballplayer/owner ran it out of oil and it was no longer a warrantee issue. But think about this, it was 1985. Plain old Champion plugs $7 each. New wires $79. Cap $24. Oil Filter $17. Air filter $26, bulk Pennzoil dino oil from a 55 gallon barrel at $6 quart, etc., etc., the bill was almost $5k for a motor you could buy yourself for under $1000. Heck yeah we stood behind it.

  That wasnt the only time. If you came in and needed an alternator for a Jeep, and they said new one was almost $700, but they could sell you a rebuilt for $230 plus labor, dont you think they would stand behind the labor, on an alternator you could walk into the same rebuilder, that he would sell you for $75??

  Otherwise your correct, most independents dont charge much over retail on parts, but dont warrant the labor either. For WWW to make over $600 profit on a rebuilt head from their own exclusive rebuilder, I cant imagine they wouldnt stand behind the labor. 
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brando4905
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« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 04:16:20 AM »

Pretty sure Clifford meant $435 for rebuilding a head, purchasing a head at Williams is a different story.
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