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Author Topic: I got hookups!!!  (Read 10305 times)
happycamperbrat
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« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2011, 10:13:55 AM »

No, Brian is right about the large flexible pipe. It runs right at the surface of the dirt up to the house and then curves and runs up the wall inside to another panel box with breakers for a bunch of different things in my house. Which is exactly the same as my mom's house does....... Down here at work though, we have the galvanized fence post stuff running to the panels and meter outdoors..... The storage shed facility I work at was built about 7 or 8 years ago.... Maybe it is a commercial/residential thing?

As for the smaller flexible pipe, Im not sure where that goes to..... but it does go down deep. I know it's deep because near this area I had to dig down about 3' for a heavy duty foundation for another project Im doing.

Im going to have to hunt around for a National Electric Code book. Since I need to learn this stuff, I would like to learn the correct way so if there is ever any problem I wont get hung!

And as for the "coat" in the background lol   Roll Eyes Now you guys are really gonna think Im a hick  Grin Grin Grin Like I said, last year I put in filtered water with a spigot for RV pad and installed backflows for sprinklers in that area..... My mom got real sick and so I had to abandon the project for awhile. That was last fall. In order to make sure none of my pipes froze during the winter and for quick covering of everthing, I hung an old brown sleeping bag there and covered other pipes with old rugs and whatever I could find in a hurry.





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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2011, 07:16:08 PM »

The welder outlet is once again installed, but Ms Cheapo here didnt buy another outlet box for it and will once again have to reinstall it  Roll Eyes http://s495.photobucket.com/albums/rr315/happycamperbrat/Little%20GTO/home%20hookups/
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #77 on: April 18, 2011, 08:34:03 PM »

Back to the RV hookups  Grin I have everything almost ready to close up (the album is posted above) But my panel is on the full side, and I have run out of space on the green bar...... can I put a ground wire on the white bar?





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bevans6
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« Reply #78 on: April 19, 2011, 05:29:55 AM »

Here is the book I use for my reference, when planning for electrical work.  http://www.amazon.ca/Electrical-Code-Simplified-Ontario-Knight/dp/0920312365 

It's issued by the Ontario, Canada government but likely is useful in your area as well.  Not a substitute for a electrician or an inspection/permit.  If you buy a guide book make sure it is new and check the publishing date, since codes and good practice evolves continually.

On your ground wire question, I would put two of the smaller green wires under one screw head.  I believe that is acceptable. 

Brian

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« Reply #79 on: April 19, 2011, 07:01:40 AM »

I put two wires in the green bar here in oregon, and it was approved... but i asked the inspector when he was doing his preliminary check, because the box i was using didnt have a green bar, and i had taken one out of another box, and it only had 3 lugs instead of your 4. as far as code date.... this was in July 2010.
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2011, 07:28:27 AM »

Thanks Chev and Brian! Next paycheck, Im getting "the book"  Wink I have a LOT to learn!

Im going to close it up today, take more pics and then call that electrition who wouldnt teach me.

On aside, I did a neighborhood looky lue and saw that the places around here that have gone up in the last 5 years or so do all have the hard conduit coming out of their meter boxes but the places older then that all have the flexible stuff like ours. So I guess the code changed within the last 10 years and we are grandfathered in....

You guys have all been awesome throughout this whole thing!!! Thank you VERY much!!!
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bevans6
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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2011, 07:50:32 AM »

You may well be grandfathered but any work on the system has to be done to current code.  I recently had a new breaker panel installed, and the access and grounding had to be redone as it met code when it was installed, but didn't meet current code.  So watch out for or take advantage of that, at some point.

Brian
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JohnEd
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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2011, 01:27:23 PM »

No!  It isn't Ok.  That is why they have two discreet bars.  One is for "grounding" and the other is for "bonding" as I understand it.  One is the AC neutral phase and the other is Earth ground for the safety circuits that get the green wire.  Not trying to sound harsh or abrupt.....just succinct.

Just so happens that a earth ground by way of a bar driven into the earth is the AC neutral connection.  At the pole, there is a Neutral phase coming off the transformer.  That wire runs down the pole and directly into a bar that has been driven into the earth.  The gap between the pole bar and the bar at your box is supposed to be conductive and is part of any circuit that uses the neutral phase......115 is an example or single phase 208 but that neutral isn't in any circuit that is called two or three phase....in terms of it being a current carrier.

Now that bonding thingy, at least in my house, is a wire running to my "in the earth gas line and my "in the earth" water line.  Same earth but one system uses a bar and the other uses water pipes.  Both circuits should show no potential between them and, for all intents, they are identical.  Many RVs have a nasty habit shocking you if you get between the fram of theCode says "NO".  They must be separate and stand alone.  Either will serve as a neutral ground but there are differences.  They both use different size wire. 

One bad thing is that if you disconnect a neutral wire it then will become "hot" and if you touch it you will become the "completion leg" of the circuit.....Not good and very exciting.  That won't happen with a green wire bonding circuit unless there is a short circuit with a device and that green wire is trying to carry current due to a coincident malfunction. ( that was for Sean)

I have two beefy, over-sized  copper conductors, solid, running into my box.  Where they go underground they have a cable splice nut attached to each.  So I have a connection to two ground bars, a gas pipe, a water pipe, re-bar sticking out of the foundation and to three Electrical Metal Tubing runs that feed out the downside of the box.  EMT is approved by code as a current carrier for Bonding but not for neutral.  That is four ground connections per code and four more.  I like overkill if it is free.

But, NO......you can't connect them together inside the box or where the inspector might see them.

It is always poor form and not conducive to communication to start an answer with "NO".  Works pretty good for affect, however.....No?

Good luck with this.  You seem doomed to a successful conclusion.  Glad to hear that.

John
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2011, 02:45:31 PM »

No??? Argh!! John, no wonder people hit the ignore button on you lol Dang! I noticed you didnt give me any alternative solutions either.... me thinks you would have me just do a separate panel box for all of this? If so, just say so. Yes I am "doomed to do this right" lol

Now guys, we have conflicting advice...... what does the code say and where does it say it?

I havent updated my album yet, but I did connect the ground to another ground lug that already had a green wire. Everything was tested and works....

Edit: I just reread your post again John  Grin Sorry! You were just explaining to me why I couldnt put the green ground wire on the neutral bar!

Pics will be in the album in about 5 min.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2011, 02:49:32 PM by happycamperbrat » Logged

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Len Silva
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« Reply #84 on: April 19, 2011, 02:56:23 PM »

I'll let Sean confirm because I'm looking at a 22 year old code book. 

I don't think you need to separate the neutral and grounds here because this is a service entrance panel.  The neutral obviously comes in from the meter can on the metal strap which does not appear to be isolated.  It looks like it is bonded to the panel.

At any other panel, the one in the mobile home, the one in the bus, or any outbuilding, they do need to be separated.
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« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2011, 08:17:27 PM »

 Teresa, not quite as easy as you thought it was in your first post is it. Grin
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2011, 08:38:24 PM »

 
Teresa, not quite as easy as you thought it was in your first post is it. Grin

 Shocked Tongue  Grin
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Sean
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« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2011, 10:48:26 PM »

I don't think you need to separate the neutral and grounds here because this is a service entrance panel.  The neutral obviously comes in from the meter can on the metal strap which does not appear to be isolated.  It looks like it is bonded to the panel.

Len is correct; in this service entrance panel, neutral and ground are electrically identical and all the lugs are bonded to the panel.  From a neatness and best practice standpoint, it would be best to use separate bars for neutral and ground.  I always recommend this for main panels, so that they can easily be converted to sub-panels later if need be.  However, if you really don't have enough lugs of various sizes to do this, it's OK to mix them.

No!  It isn't Ok.  That is why they have two discreet bars.

You would be correct for a sub-panel.  But see above.

Quote
One is for "grounding" and the other is for "bonding" as I understand it.

Now you are confusing things.  The ground bus, where the "grounding conductors" are connected, IS the bus where the bond is made.  Not the other bus.  IOTW, the ground bus is always bonded to the panel itself.

The other bus is the "neutral" bus and is for the neutral, or "grounded" conductors (how's that for confusing terminology -- one of the instances where you really have to know how to read the code).  This is the bus which, in a sub-panel, is NOT bonded to ground.  In a sub-panel that has been converted to a main service entrance panel, the bond can be made with a "bonding jumper" between the two buses.

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One is the AC neutral phase

Again, this is very confusing terminology and not correct.  "Neutral" is not a "phase" -- the phases are the hots, and the neutral is grounded (at the service entrance).

Quote
Just so happens that a earth ground by way of a bar driven into the earth is the AC neutral connection.  At the pole, there is a Neutral phase coming off the transformer.  That wire runs down the pole and directly into a bar that has been driven into the earth.

Actually, it is customary for the driven ground to be at the service entrance, not at the pole.

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... but that neutral isn't in any circuit that is called two or three phase....in terms of it being a current carrier.

Also not true.  First off, there really isn't any such thing as a "two-phase" circuit.  There is single-phase, such as what your house uses, and three-phase, which many commercial and industrial buildings use, and also some campgrounds.

A 240-volt single-phase circuit, or a three-phase delta circuit, will not have a neutral.  However 120/240 split-phase circuits and three-phase wye circuits do have neutrals, and these neutrals do, indeed, carry current.  Three-phase in campgrounds will be the wye variety, and a 50-amp pedestal with have two phase wires and one neutral wire in addition to the ground.  Unlike a 240-volt split-phase circuit, this neutral will always carry some current, even if the loads on the two phase wires are exactly balanced.

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...  Many RVs have a nasty habit shocking you if you get between the fram of theCode says "NO".  They must be separate and stand alone.  Either will serve as a neutral ground but there are differences.  They both use different size wire.

Huh

Quote
... So I have a connection to two ground bars, a gas pipe, a water pipe, re-bar sticking out of the foundation and to three Electrical Metal Tubing runs that feed out the downside of the box. ...  That is four ground connections per code and four more.  I like overkill if it is free.

I think you may be misinterpreting the reasons for the bonding of the water and gas lines.  These do not serve as grounding for your electrical system; in fact, it would be dangerous to use a gas line for this purpose.  The reason these pipes need to be bonded to the ground system and to the driven ground is in the event that something accidentally energizes the pipes.  For example, a faulty electric water heater might energize the water pipes; without the connection or 'bond" to the electrical ground system, no breaker will trip and the pipes might be energized to a dangerous voltage.  By bonding the pipe system electrically, such a fault will complete the circuit and trip the breaker.  Similarly, you want to ensure that all these systems are forced to the same potential if they come out of the ground in different places.

Hope that clears some things up.

-Sean
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happycamperbrat
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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2011, 07:56:24 AM »

huh? so my interpretation I guess it is okay to put it on the green or white bar in the service panel, BUT in the sub panels it would have to go on the green bar only? Does the NEC come with a dictionary lol?
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« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2011, 08:05:42 AM »

Excellent question HCB --- actually there are TWO books that are available that refer to the electric code.

There is THE CODE BOOK which is written in what appears to be code --- once you understand it is pretty easy to find what you need and easy enough to understand

There is also what I call the users guide --- I haven't bought one for the last two code books (electric code is upgraded every three years 1999 2002 2005 2008 2011 etc) that explains in layman terms all the code talk and specifically addresses code changes -- if you would like I can get the REAL name so you can look it up --- also if I remember correctly it is more expensive than the code book.

HTH

Melbo
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