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Author Topic: Biodiesel and the DD 8V71  (Read 4617 times)
Danny
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« on: September 20, 2006, 07:48:49 PM »

What the thoughts of the group on Biodiesel and the DD 8V71 engine?

Thanks,
Danny
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 11:38:30 PM »

Shouldn't be a problem since the clearances on the injectors are not as tight as the electronic engines are.  I have recieved Diesel Secret convesion fluid to make veggie oil Diesel.  To 17 gals of veggie oil you add 2 gallons Kerosene, 1 gallon unleaded gasoline, 15 ounces of Power Service Diesel additive, and 3.5 ounces of Diesel Secret Energy to make 20 gallons total.  If you collect your own oil, can cost as little as .46/gallon to make.  I'm going to buy 55 gal drums of virgin oil and just use that since I don't have the time to scrounge around behind restaurants for old cooking oil.  Not only am I going to run it in my Mercedes Turbodiesel, I intend to run it in my bus, at least to top off the tank before a trip.  This mixture is essentially a B85 mix. But with no lye, ethynol, additional heaters or extra tanks.  One gallon of the mix is about $40.  But one gallon will make about 730gal of veggie oil based fuel. Will let you know how it works in the next few weeks.  Go to www.dieselsecret.com  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 12:05:42 PM »

Tom, the "secret" must be some way to demulsify the fat content of the oil to get it to separate out. It's the heavy fats that cause the fuel to gel at lower temps. I suspect that the "secret" is a readily-available demulsifier. Any chemists out there?

I'd be very concerned about adding any gasoline to the mix, because you'll lower the cetane ratio of the mixture. It's the cetane (inverse of octane) value that quantifies the ability of the fuel to ignite with compression. Gasoline has anti-knock (preignition) additives that will work against a diesel's need to ignite fuels with compression alone. If you must add gasoline, make sure it it the lowest pump grade (octane) available.

Also, be sure and bring along a bunch of extra fuel filters, because Biodiesel will make your entire fuel system squeaky-clean.

And thanks for being a "pioneer" in this field! I'm very curious to hear your results.

Brian
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Brian Brown
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 12:24:48 PM »

To 17 gals of veggie oil you add 2 gallons Kerosene, 1 gallon unleaded gasoline, 15 ounces of Power Service Diesel additive, and 3.5 ounces of Diesel Secret Energy to make 20 gallons total.†


You forgot Snake Oil....  Oh, sorry, you did get it. They just put an official sounding name one it... Diesel Secret Energy!!  Cheesy

Glad this is your engine and not mine.  Let us know how that works for you, though.

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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 04:49:16 PM »

 

    I've been hanging out on some Waste Veggie Oil and BioDiesel forums for the last few months or so.
 
 The members there are very informed as how to make Diesel engines run properly on WVO.
 There are some companies that are actually converting over soe diesel buses to run on WVO.
 Check out these link to read for yourself about the DSE or do a search on the forums for DSE for more info.
 http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/4511077101?r=9731063111#9731063111
 The concensus I got was not to use it.
 But please read some of the info.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2006, 02:52:34 PM by Chariotdriver » Logged

Phil Webb
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2006, 11:35:17 AM »

I wonder about biodiesel. It has been out long enough that there should be some real answers rather than all the hype & mystery. I've read what I could & talked to a chemist & I still can't get an understanding of the real costs.

If it is so great as advertised;

 why aren't the petrol companies using it to lower their cost & selling more for less to increase their proffit even further.

 why aren't local trucking terminals using it to fuel up their trucks at the terminals? at ~$2/ gal savings, I wouldn't think it would take very long to start showing up on the bottom line in a big way.


I'm not against it, it just doesn't seem to make sense. There ain't no free lunch. Where are the 'hidden' costs?

A friend is making a version of it to run in his Ford diesel pick-up. But the risk there is less than on a bus... there are more zeros involved if you loose a engine or need a tow on a bus.

As for me, well I'm chicken on this stuff (since the savings pale in comparrison to the potential costs) & I'd rather not wager my 8V71.

Good luck on doing it your way.


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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2006, 12:54:42 PM »

I wonder about biodiesel. It has been out long enough that there should be some real answers rather than all the hype & mystery. I've read what I could & talked to a chemist & I still can't get an understanding of the real costs.

If it is so great as advertised;

 why aren't the petrol companies using it to lower their cost & selling more for less to increase their proffit even further.

 why aren't local trucking terminals using it to fuel up their trucks at the terminals? at ~$2/ gal savings, I wouldn't think it would take very long to start showing up on the bottom line in a big way.

There simply is not enough vegetable oil, waste or not, to fuel more than a small part of America's diesel fleet, regardless if this stuff is snake oil or not.  Biodiesel is reported to be driving up the costs of vegetable oil for food use.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2006, 07:22:08 PM »

There simply is not enough vegetable oil, waste or not, to fuel more than a small part of America's diesel fleet, regardless if this stuff is snake oil or not. Biodiesel is reported to be driving up the costs of vegetable oil for food use.

Brian Elfert

Yep, no free lunch, the waste oil isn't being wasted, is is already being used for other stuff. So it is just robbing Peter to pay Paul & make a few people happy.

It would be nice if veggie oil production could increase without causing problems elsewhere.........
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2006, 08:41:37 PM »

I have a 2006 chevy duramax diesel, I run biodiesel that I make for myself, I have had absoultly no problems except no black smoke!, I use the methoxide methoed ( methonal + sodium hydroxide ) and settle out the glyceryn, as this is what will destroy and injector pump ( glyceryn ). I purchased the " Seceret " online, I dont think I would try the " SECERET " in any of my diesel motors, unless I could get rid of the glyceryn somehow

Rick
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« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2006, 10:49:33 PM »

I've been using the DSE method of running WVO in my 86 Ford 6.9 diesel to see how it works before I use it in my bus and have driven about 2200 miles without any signs of a problem (I'm keeping my fingers crossed)the truck still fires right up in the mornings and highway mileage is 19.6 lowest to 21.75 highest at 65 mph. I still cant believe it is cheaper now to drive the truck than it is to drive my Del Sol. Time will tell
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2006, 06:02:41 AM »

We have a politician in Alberta currently campaigning with a proposal for the government to spend tons of money in research and grants to build a biodiesel plant.

The object of this proposal is to increase the price of canola to the farmer, so there goes your free lunch. Everything cooked with vegetable oil will cost more, your diesel fuel will be subsidized with tax dollars and some farmers will be able to sell a product that there is currently no market for. The environment activists will probably support him on this policy alone.
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Homegrowndiesel
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« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2006, 08:43:07 AM »

Good question Danny Smiley

No problem with bio-diesel in an 871.† Old rubber fuel lines with neat(100%) biodiesel is another story.

Later today I will take some time to respond more indepth to this discussion.
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« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2006, 09:08:40 AM »

Al- Since being lambasted for touting the virtures of the DSE method for B85 BioDiesel, I have been looking at the sights that are knocking (parden the pun) its' usefullness.  So far, I've read alot of negative views on DSE saying "it won't work; wouldn't put that in my engine; will cause serious problems, etc".  I have also read posts, like yours, that are saying that the DSE method is working well.  What I haven't read yet, is proof positive that this can ruin your engine.  I have read about the fool that tried 25% gasoline and 75% Diesel-duh! And have read about some of the engines that are cautioned about, like early GM 6.2, 6.5, and others with inheritanly weak injection pumps that have failed with the thicker WVO.  I haven't seen any indication that the DSE can be harmful to a MB 300 engine like my car (actually the best engine to use since the injecter tip is relatively large and it has a very strong injection pump), or to a Detroit 2 stroke mechanical engine (all you have to do is to see what the military are using to get an idea which engines can work with questionable fuel).

I hope all the experimenting with WVO and SVO will keep all of us up on both the positive and the negatives that are found.  I am interested in the results.  Good Luck TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2006, 12:57:39 PM »

Tom C,

Don't pay any attention to the nay sayer's. I have, like many others have had great results making my own BioDiesel. I currently have used it in my 6v92 and my 7.3l and my VW for about 3 yrs now without any problems. The DSE method works great.

I have also used waste engine oil mixed at 20% diesel or kerosene and 80% used oil with no problems. Actually the engines sound better and seem to feel stronger. Look at it this way, with all the nay sayer's that just leaves more alternative fuels for us. Grin

Dale
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« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2006, 07:00:33 PM »

 Glad to see so much interest in alternative fuels. Smiley I have been experimenting with various alternative fuel blends for some years now and am always happy to share my experiences.  Wink

As a drop (pour) in replacement for petroleum fossil fuel in todayís diesel engine Biodiesel is good down to about 38 degrees. As of today I know of no pour point enhancer that is available for Biodiesel, as opposed to plenty that are available for diesel fuel.† The pour point, filter-plugging temperature is close to that of diesel, and if you live in a temperate climate the two are interchangeable.

Due to the solvent qualities of the esters of vegetable oil (Biodiesel) natural rubber and some other rubber compounds are not compatible. (They get soft and gummy) No problem with newer?† vehicles due to the new rubber compounds used on the fuel lines. I have about 3 years on the old rubber lines in a couple of places just to see how they hold up, and I should replace them soon.

After making and using Biodiesel for awhile I learned about Rudolf Diesel, his invention, (the compression ignition engine) and what he designed his engine to run on, Vegetable oil. I found out what engines (because of their design) ran good on vegetable oil (indirect injection and old school injection pumps) and which ones can cause problems if you do not thin the vegetable oil enough (worn rotary pumps, and direct injection).

I have run engines on Waste motor oil, waste vegetable oil, alcohol, and blends that have also included mineral spirits, kerosene, gasoline, as well as fuel conditioner, and what some would call snake oil.† Iíve taken the engines apart to see the results, and am going to try the different blends for emissions @ our local DMV.

What I have done is but a drop in the ocean. The information age we live in has been so helpful. The Internet, and boards like this one have taught me so much.

The way I see it now (FWIW) is you can run Biodiesel neat, (100%) down to 40 degrees (fudge factor). You can run blends 5-20% with diesel, or kerosene in cold temps with the proper additives to below zero. To ensure all temperature and fuel combinations, you need a heated fuel supply. As previously noted you can add a lot of products to thin the vegetable oil out. Some products ensure the homogenous blend that resists separation of the blend.

I got a really good laugh when I read congress brought in the oil executives and asked them what we, as Americans could do to help promote alternative fuels in the market place.† That would be like asking Shell oil company how you could boost the sale of Exxon products, it is not in their best interest. Of course if they can still control it and make the profit as they are now!† I feel Biodiesel fits their existing refinery, distribution system well.

I have heard a lot of naysayers with a lot of reasons, but every $1 less spent oversees counts. I do not want to sound like an environmental wacko or the sky is falling Chicken Little but folks those fossil fuels are not limitless and renewable fuels are Co2 neutral. I do not want to be held hostage to the status quo, and would rather support a farmer versus a foreigner.

The blend I am trying now is mostly alcohol, and vegetable oil.† Alcohol and 5% gasoline has worked surprisingly well. Used French fry oil properly filtered and ran with a heated fuel supply has run flawless.

"The diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it"
"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time."
Rudolf Diesel 1911


More than what you asked for Danny, and I will quit rambling.

Bill Glenn
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« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2006, 10:23:06 PM »

Thank you Bill Glenn!! Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2006, 10:08:18 AM »

Hey Guys,
  I have been reading up on alternative fuels for my 8V71 and think that the best way for me would be to go with straight WVO and heat it. And also, obviously run a second tank of straight diesel to start/stop with. I can see where in a car or truck that would kind of be a pain in the butt, but with my bus, I think it would be fine.
 My question is: I can get WVO from KFC but should I only use the french fry oil or is it ok to use the chicken frying oil also? I understand you don't want animal fats and I'm sure there is some in the chicken oil just from the chicken.
  One more question: anybody have pix as to how to heat the oil?? Or can you explain how to go about it? My fuel tank is way up front and I was thinking it may be better back by the engine. Any thoughts on that??
  Thanx a bunch!
     Chaz
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2006, 02:18:40 PM »

Hey Chaz

Glad to hear about your first run.  Smiley
Animal fat runs good to, just have to keep it warmer. No problem with KFC oil not enough to worry about.

Leave the diesel tank up front, locate another one close to the back for alt fuel.

 I like the fuel line in the insulated heater hose, and heated filter method best. In really cold climates an added flat plate heat exchanger just before the fuel pump boosts the temp great.

There is some good links to pictures some posts back, google WVO and you will get alot more.

 Pickup truck motorized 6 way fuel selector valve from JC Whitney will help your switchover. Mount it in an insulated box with the flat plate HE to work in really cold weather.

Bill

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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2006, 03:35:23 PM »

I welded in a bung on my WVO tank and used a screw in type block heater. I run that off of an inverter with a flip switch on the dash. KFC oil will work just fine.

Dale
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Chaz
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« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2006, 03:52:17 PM »

Thanx guys. I will use both of your suggestions. What is and where could I get a fuel filter heater? And "flat plate HE"?  I was thinking about that heat tape you use on water pipes to keep them from freezing or to thaw them. But they are 110.

What about when you are driving, do you need to heat the WVO? I was thinking about a copper coil in the WVO tank and running the anti-freeze thu it. Realistic??

 thanx again!!
  Chaz
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« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2006, 07:27:43 PM »

I have to comment on the idea of reducing our dependancy on over seas oil.  My son is back from Iraq where he served in the USMC.  He told of several stories.  The cost of oil "over there" is getting too expensive for my blood.  The more we can promote homegrown the better!

Danny
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« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2006, 09:23:27 PM »

Chaz,
Ebay for the flat plate heat exchanger (HE) $100-120.00.

heat tape wont do, Need alot more heat.

coolant loop in tank works to keep it fluid. but need more heat on lines.

Danny,

Glad to hear your son made it back, we all owe him a debt of gratitude.

Bill
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« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2006, 06:29:42 AM »

Bill, or whom ever,
  Thanx for the info on the flat plate heat exchanger!!!!!! I looked on e-bay but am unsure what I am looking for. This is what I THINK I am looking for, but I'm not sure: http://cgi.ebay.com/Brazed-40-Plate-Outdoor-Wood-Furnace-Heat-Exchanger_W0QQitemZ200038359038QQihZ010QQcategoryZ20598QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Is that correct? I am assuming I need to plumb it in the coolant line as well as the WVO line. Is there anyplace I can reseach how to do this? Or do any of you have any tips or tricks? I am new at this, and just don't want to reinvent the mouse trap.  Wink
  Thanx for all your help!
     Chaz
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« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2006, 08:52:34 AM »

IMHO, wrapping a coolant line AROUND the WVO tank may be easier, work just as well and avoid any chance of a leak of coolant into your fuel. And put shut-off valves on this line in case you have to pull the tank for some reason.
My 2 cents. Dale MC8
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« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2006, 10:10:48 AM »

Good thought Dale. But I think I may make a copper coil- 1 piece - and put it in the tank. I think I would be pretty safe with that if there are no connections in the tank. (?)

I'd still like to know a little more about what others have done and what does and doesn't work. 

I looked up Webasto and I think it looks pretty cool, but it never really gave me much info. How it works, what it does and can do....... Like can I run radient hydronic heat in the floor with it? And will it warm my engine? And can it be plumbed so It will run hot water thru the WVO tank and the engine and floor all at the same time?
I imagine it will take some creative plumbing to do it, IF it CAN do it.
  Any suggestions??
   Chaz
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