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Author Topic: Current Cost of Freon  (Read 9371 times)
belfert
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« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2011, 11:28:40 AM »

Dina never had any way to get air conditioned air to the defroster.  To date, just heated air has worked out okay.  The one time in winter weather we really needed the defrost it wouldn't work at all.  It turned out that a wire had come loose from the switch.

Brian first off the defrost system on a DINA SUCKS on a charter bus loaded with passengers! I've been the driver of more than one that had problems clearing the windshield. Also it's not the air conditioned air on the windshield that clears it. The A/C sucks the moisture out of the air and helps the defroster do it's job.

Yes, I know that the air conditioner dries out the air.  It still remains that a Dina has no way to remove moisture from the defrost air.  You and I have two different uses for a bus.  You also use yours a lot more.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011, 02:13:44 PM »

  It is a good idea to 'valve off' the compressor for extended times of non-use, isolating the compressor from the rest of the system. That said if you are sure that the rest of the system is leak free. The shaft seal is partially made with the refrigerant oil in the seal. If it sits gravity takes over with the oil and the refrigerant can leak past the seal. (snip)

I don't know if it works in a bus or makes any difference in a house air system, but you see a *big* difference in charge leakage in a car system if you switch on the A/C for about 3 minutes a month during the winter.  You'll need a warm day (or starting in a warm garage to begin with warm charge) so that it doesn't trip out on you but doing this seems to eliminate a very high %-age of charge leak (at least that part due to the compressor seals) over a winter.
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

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Hi yo silver
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« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011, 05:00:11 PM »

As a retired fire investigator, I appreciate Paul's (Artvonne) comments and perspective re. the air/fuel ratio requirements for igniteability of Freeze 12. I have had it installed in my bus and have been very happy with the preformance, and I am not concerned with its flammability properties. In my opinion, the key to reducing the loss of refrigerant is to run the bus about every month.
Dennis
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Blue Ridge Mountains of VA   Hi Yo Silver! MC9
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Tom & Phyllis
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« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2011, 05:45:49 PM »

I have a 90 model Jeep that uses R-12 and I don't plan on changing to 134 leaks out about pound every 2 or 3 years

R-134A molecules are about 1/2 the size of R-12 molecules. Since there is no such thing as a perfect sealed system, there is always a very small amount of leakage anyway. When you replace the refrigerant with another one whose molecules are 1/2 size, the leak rate gets higher. Look at it this way: If you fence in your rabbits with rabbit wire, you will very seldom have one get out. If you put mice in the same pen, you're going to lose them.

TOM
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Joe Camper
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« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2011, 07:38:26 PM »

What if the temps are down below freezing. I know heat pumps do not work below 40 or so and I was under the impression that freon does not like to move around when its too cold.

Is it O/K to run the system when its 20 or 10 degrees out?
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robertglines1
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« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2011, 07:55:30 PM »

Joe, On our cars in the winter when we turn our defroster on in zero weather the ac cycles on and off briefly .I was told this feature was to keep the system active and help prevent leaks during the colder months. Also not efficient newer refrigerants are active down to single numbers.  Bob
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2011, 08:56:35 PM »

  What if the temps are down below freezing. I know heat pumps do not work below 40 or so and I was under the impression that freon does not like to move around when its too cold.   Is it O/K to run the system when its 20 or 10 degrees out?   

__.  Joe, remember that I said "warm days or when the vehicle has been in a heated garage"?  There are control switches (that's why I mentioned "tripped out") that disable a car A/C system (usually by cutting off the engaging current to the compressor or triggering a switch within a computer control to do so) when pressures within the system are too high or too low.  R-134 will work at lower temps (mostly because it's less efficient) but I wouldn't run an A/C when the temp is below freezing or the vehicle wasn't warmed up "artificially".   I'm sure that there are places on earth where you won't find a day over freezing all winter but most places where most people live will afford you the opportunity. 
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
buswarrior
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« Reply #37 on: May 15, 2011, 06:56:55 AM »

The AC will cycle in the current coaches anytime, any day, 365, according to a combination of the humidity in the coach and temperature in and out.

And your personal vehicle more than likely engages the AC to some degree when set to defrost, as noted by an earlier poster.

Some of it is for performance of the HVAC, some of it is to keep the seals lubed.

Joe, it all depends on how often you operate the coach during the winter months, how often you might want the AC during that time, whether you choose to try cycling it on and off, or you isolate the compressor for those months.

I guess the trick is getting a handle on how long before the seals are starting to get dry?

A field of study for which we have no commercial body of experience to fall back on, except perhaps a few of the entertainer leasing companies. Who else lets a capital asset like a coach sit for months on end?

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
Joe Camper
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« Reply #38 on: May 15, 2011, 04:28:05 PM »

I have decided the best way to solve that issue is to stay where it is warm.


Daaaaaaaa Grin
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