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Author Topic: Waste Motor Oil for fuel.  (Read 14814 times)
JohnEd
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« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2011, 08:32:16 AM »


I'll just keep on burning it in my shop heater.

Thank you for that.  Any move to put a dent in our oil dependance is a move in the right direction.  If I had room for a tank and outside boiler I would be heating everything with WMO.  Let there be no doubt. Hot water, jacuze, sauna, house and sidewalks and...... And if your only alternative is heating oil I think a WMO furnace is a no brainer.  The things can easily be converted to fuel oil if the WMO supply dries up so there seems to be no risk at all to me.
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JohnEd
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« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2011, 08:55:23 AM »

It would be best to filter the stuff with a super fine filter like a Gulf Coast bypass filter. Then try it in a generator or small engine first. It is important to get the viscosity and burn temp correct. Too much volatiles could burn a hole somewhere in the engine. How about mixing it with winter (thin) diesel?

You can never heat it as thin as D but "thin" would be a move in the right direction.  I know that they heat the stuff way up "at the burner" so you would need more line pressure for the burn rate of a vehicle.  I have a hunch that no matter how hot you get it, within reason, it will still be too thick for a D engine to deal with.  But, obviously you can get it thin enuf with RUG.  But flow doesn't dismiss the host of other problems associated with a substance that "the state of Kalifirnia has determined that WMO is a carcinogen". Huh Wink

THAT WAS MY IDEA.  Try it in something you can work on and repair yourself such as a generator.  Understand that the folks that have done a lot of research into this at Universities advocate using WVO at full load only to avoid any build up at all.  At very light loads the engine combustion temp won't prevent build up regardless of heating the oil to 180 but here we go with many flying in the face of scientific proof and doing nicely, thank you.  That would be my final test before using it in a $15 engine.  I also bought a fiber-optic scope so I could look into the cylinder and SEE HOW I AM DOING.  Even from a combustion chamber point of view these things are all different animals and add into that the fuel pumps and injectors and timing and I think you loose the concept of one size fits all.  I think it is critical that you eval your own situation.  (WAL, you can borrow my scope and it will take pics if you attach a digital camera but that would go for my anus, too. The pic part....not the lending.)
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
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belfert
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« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2011, 08:58:41 AM »

Where are you guys getting WMO to burn?  Do service garages just give it to you?  If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons.  Certainly not enough to use for anything.
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« Reply #18 on: May 13, 2011, 09:16:05 AM »

soooo, I guess the next natural step would be to use wvo or even wmo or even some sort of a blend with our propane appliances.... once in awhile I see gas engines that have been converted to use propane, would it be possible to do some sort of a blend with gas to keep the flash point or other slight modification....
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« Reply #19 on: May 13, 2011, 10:33:40 AM »

  Reading much thats posted here and on the net, seeing some of the mixtures people are playing with, im not so sure im comfortable with all of it. Adding gasoline and oil together can not only create fuels that burn well, but can fool someone who thinks they are dealing with diesel fuel, something that wont normally burn, and create a real catastrophe when they find out it has the same volatility as Gasoline. You could throw lit matches into a bucket of fuel oil all day long and it wont ever catch fire. Add some Gasoline to it and someone could get a real surprise.

That is a valid safety concern.  We deal with those regularly and with great success.  Now can you hear the uproar if a DOT requirement hit the street that made it a requirement to label alt fuel vehicles tank filling point with a caution and that caution right under the "DIESEL ONLY" sticker.  Not to be cute about it.

  It is also sad to see those old Mercedes diesels being tossed away as has been discussed, and reading that places a great shadow over the whole WVO discussion. How truly bad is WVO to an engine, what kind or real issues have been seen, or might have been seen, had those cars been torn down and inspected? We lost a lot of data by people doing that.

We are birds of a feather on that.  I lament the loss of recoverable machinery and the stupid disregard for empirical evidence.  In this case I think the data is in, analyzed and the scientific conclusions are written.  IT WORKS REALLY WELL  There are considerations and qualifications attached to that statement.  Will it work?  That's a moot question.


  At $4 gallon plus, diesel is expensive, there is no argument there. And my hat is off to Wal in running his Bus on WVO, and I hope the best. But this needs watching. There is so little data on the long term effects that it still appears risky.

I disagree and I think a brief investigation will bear out the truth but in the past all evidence was dismissed with some comment such as "Yes, but there are other factors and stuff."    The labs and universities that do this testing run engines for hundreds of hours and tear down the engine and project that if the residue peaked at 50 hours and they saw no change over the next 50 hours then the max deposit was that that was seen at the 50 hour run time.  Follow that logic?  Most of the nay sayers want the test to state what the condition would be at 150 hours and they announce that reservation as though they have exposed a vital flaw in the scientific findings.  If you run it for a thousand hours they still pull a reservation out of their but as a question and declare the test invalid.  Present company excepted on that.
WMO adds yet another angle to the questions of long term effects. How does an injection pump hold up to fuel that is contaminated with acids and metal particles? How hard is it to fully clean and filter it to where its no longer harmful? And how does it burn? Does it build deposits?

Now you are talk'n.  "How do we fully clean and make it harmless to our engines?" (loosely quoted)  I am going with "It can be done cause it is a petro product".  The question is how and at what cost.

  When you consider that older mechanical injected diesels had different injection timing specs for different Cetane rated fuels, or that the DD has different injectors for different applications, or that they use different injectors for Bunker oil than for #2 diesel, then the idea you can simply change the fuel type and viscosity without making any changes to the injectors or injection timing becomes suspect. I for one simply cannot believe you can run any other fuel through a diesel set up to run #2, and expect it to run optimally or without some ill effects.

There is a great deal of engineering and testing done on engines to find the proper timing and injection nozzle for a particular combustion chamber with a particular fuel grade, and any change to the fuel will effect the combustion of that fuel. To what degree however, is the question, and it is for all intents, unknown without some kind of testing that looks into the combustion chamber over a period of time, and a teardown of the injection pump to see how its wearing.

I think this testing has been concluded for WVO.  There are some engines and fuel pumps that will not tolerate any increase in fuel viscosity and those pumps are known due to their frequent failures pushing DinoD.  You are even more than correct that we need to know the history of the pumps we will be using.  Again, I think that data has been accumulated.  DD is a winner based on results.  VW TDI is a winner but the modern Mercedes won't allow it.  Older Mercedes are a "go".  Lots of info out there and just because somebody can articulate a question is not proof, in itself, that no answer can be found even ever.

  IOW, saving money on fuel is one thing, and great when it works. Creating volatile fuels, and putting those fuels into vehicles labeled as diesel fuel, and not labeling it, adds a danger that is simply not being addressed.

You are correct and that is why we have all those warnings and cautions on just about every blessed thing we purchase.  I have three pages of "WARNING"s in my new stereo manual.  The litegous few have brought this down on us and the corps that have flagrantly disregarded our safty in the past are at the front of the list of why the lawyers are needed in the first place.  Ever heard about the Pinto with the exploding gas tank?  How about the Firestone tires that disentagrated after a couple thousand miles.  In both these case it took a law suit to alter the corporatios behavior and stop killing men women and children by the hundreds.  I don't like a lot of tis system either but I have lived thru the history and read about a lot of it that happened before my time.  The alternatives are far far worse.  I'll tolerate those scum that sue for everything and consider it the cost of doing bidness

And then destroying engines with WVO, and hiding the damage by just walking away and junking them, takes away a great deal of knowledge that could have been used, either to find work arounds to the problems, or to find its simply a dead end. A $10K engine failure after saving $9,998.00 on fuel isnt saving anything.

 

   
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
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JohnEd
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« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2011, 10:38:52 AM »

Where are you guys getting WMO to burn?  Do service garages just give it to you?  If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons.  Certainly not enough to use for anything.

Here in the Commie NW we have to take our drain oil to a disposal site and that is the store where I bought it.  If I want to drain their holding tank I am welcome to do that cause they pay to have it hauled off.

Used to be you could buy "Reclaimed oil" for next to nothing.  It was clear and golden but wasn't a good engine lube cause it ahd all the additives and impurities removed by heating and filtering and neutralizing,  At least they did back in the 50's.  I'll wager they weren't breaking new ground with filtering oil even way back then.
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
JohnEd
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« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2011, 10:51:40 AM »

soooo, I guess the next natural step would be to use wvo or even wmo or even some sort of a blend with our propane appliances.... once in awhile I see gas engines that have been converted to use propane, would it be possible to do some sort of a blend with gas to keep the flash point or other slight modification....

There are systems for sale out there that inject propane gas into the D intake to boost power on a hill or such.  These are unsophisticated single stage systems.....on or off.  I figure any power I use on a hill, no matter where I got it, would be of cost beni if that power was derived from a source cheaper that DinoD.  But how much bene and at what install cost might be a sticking point.  Then there is the sophisticated  system that injects the propane in accord with the throttle's setting and engine's ability to use it.  Given all that i wondered why they didn't just install bigger injectors but then the mfrs are not to free with their electronic data for the older engines.  I did a search on "propane injection for diesel" and got a ton of data.  Old technology I guess, as so many of my own bright ideas have proven to be in the past....even all the way back to grade school.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
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« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2011, 12:09:22 PM »

Where are you guys getting WMO to burn?  Do service garages just give it to you?  If I drained the oil on everything I own I might get 7 or 8 gallons.  Certainly not enough to use for anything.

Good question Brian  I belong to a few car clubs and I just let the word out that I'll take there used oil. Smiley

I have friends in the equipment business and when they change Hyd oil motor oil etc.. they save it for me.

Before I converted my boiler to run WMO I saved for years.  ( only need 300 gals a heating season )

My problem now is so many people call to drop of their oil or say they have been collecting for years in a 45 gallon drum and its getting full.

I have all my filtering and oil tanks in a 45' semi trailer so all is out of sight and lots of room Smiley

I have tanks that have only 100% HHO, 50/50 WMO and HHO,  Pure WMO,  Mixed WMO, HHO, RUG,

I filter etc.... in the hot summer (thinest oil ) easy to filter Smiley

Winter when its -40 f All I want to do is switch tanks ( turn valves ) or swap burners. selecting to suit outside conditions.

 
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JohnEd
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« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2011, 01:20:47 PM »

Paseo.

You are my Hero.


John
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 03:27:37 PM by JohnEd » Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2011, 03:31:07 PM »

[wastewatts] cheap diesel
            
   
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to make your own diesel:

put 40 gallons of WMO, Waste ATF, waste hydraulic oil in a 55 gallon drum.
Add 5 gallons cheap unleaded gas
mix
let sit 3 days for most of the gunk to settle out
filter through 3 micron filter into your truck's fuel tank.

Details:
pump/filter setup to filter to 3 microns is NOT trivial.
Lots of detergents in WMO/WATF - it will scrub your tank clean and plug your on truck filter on the first tank. be prepared for it.
total cost today is about 53 cents a gallon mostly due to the purchase of the gas.

7.3 fords, 5.9 cummins, old mercedes, old vw's, every tractor we have tried so far work fine. chevies have issues due to optical sensors in the IP.

__._,_.___

Now you all know I am not endorsing this.  I am going to save this post to "wastewatts" by Doug Miller and get more info first hand.  Maybe one of you would like to contact him and then get a Knut to look into it in person.  He might live next door to Clifford...who knows.

Thanks,

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2011, 03:57:13 PM »

Paseo.

You are my Hero.


John

Wow Thanks John before you corrected the typo  I thought you were thinking I was a ZERO   Grin
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JohnEd
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« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2011, 04:12:47 PM »

My bad, sorry Smiley
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
JohnEd
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« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2011, 05:41:30 PM »

OK....I have the name of a gentleman that has been running WMO blended with RUG in his D for 40K miles or such.  As well, I think there may be a dozen in his area that have been doing likewise.  He lives in the Boise, Idaho area in a section called "Eagle".  Who do we have in that area that would like to visit this guy and get a grip on his operation and maybe look at what his associates are doing as well.  Please contact me at 541 915 083two and we can talk about it. He seems congenial and totally open.  He indicated he wouldn't mind if a few visited even at different times.  Always a pleasure.  Mind you I don't know these people but they are familiar to me as posters on Yahoo Wastewatts Group.

Anybody in the Boise area?

Thanks,

John
« Last Edit: May 13, 2011, 08:09:40 PM by JohnEd » Logged

"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
Tom Y
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« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2011, 04:10:45 AM »

Ok call me DUM. What is RUG? I missed this part, now I have to work on my bus. To much time spent here. 
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Tom Yaegle
JohnEd
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« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2011, 06:56:44 AM »

TomY,

I am a long way from ever calling you dumb, Tom.  RUG is the accepted abbreviation for Regular Unleaded Gasoline among "Blenders", those that make or extend diesel by a mixing in or blending in other fuels.  They, those on the forums where alternative  (Alt) fuels are the topic, always specify REGULAR.  They could just as easily say GAS if hightest/highoctane were acceptable but they do not. In fact, they specifically say High Octane is NOT acceptable.  So RUG it is among those people and those of us that aspire to cheaper fuels and longer trips and shorter stays. Wink  I guess I am a blender wanna be.

Thanks for your question.  I'm sure you were not alone.

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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