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Author Topic: diesel over to biodiesel 6v71 ????  (Read 2963 times)
jaypullen
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« on: May 25, 2011, 05:16:03 PM »

can anyone tell me what it would take to run my 1977 mc5c with a 6v71 on biodiesel Im not sure whats the difference is, diesel is almost 5.00 in SF thanks for your time JPULLEN
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desi arnaz
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« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2011, 05:37:18 PM »

best bet is to move.....
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thomas f  Bethlehem n.h
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« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2011, 05:56:42 PM »

I didnt have to do anything to run biodiesel...... except change my filters As far as I know it would be the same with any older diesel engine... mine is a 6v82t though...... It's just the svo (straight veggie oil) that rots steel and stuff over time that get into the injectors, or hardens up in cold. The biodiesel is svo that has been chemically altered to be very much like the old diesel that our engines were actually designed for
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« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2011, 06:25:08 PM »

So far as bio diesel just pour it in and carry extra filters with you.  Bio diesel is derived mostly of used vegetable oil.  The end product acts as a solvent and will clean every piece of nasty out of the old tank and send it straight to the filters.  Thus you need to carry extra until the old stuff is gone.  Then replace filters as normal from then on.  Welcome to the movement!!!!!
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« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2011, 07:00:08 PM »

I noticed a place in SF area sells wvo fuel B100 @4.57 a gal and they ask you drop off the wvo to help with cost, must cost more than .50 cents a gal to make or these guys are making some bucks here lol love the name Dogpatch Bio
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 07:07:49 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2011, 08:41:39 PM »

I noticed a place in SF area sells wvo fuel B100 @4.57 a gal and they ask you drop off the wvo to help with cost, must cost more than .50 cents a gal to make or these guys are making some bucks here lol love the name Dogpatch Bio

They are making big bucks  Tongue Make your own....... LOTS cheaper
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NeoplanAN440
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« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 06:44:49 AM »

they are not really making money!!!

right now you can sell just WVO for $ 3.60 per gallon to the large recycling companies.
so if you ad the cost for methanol and to process and wash it, there is no money earned.

the price for used oil went up like crazy in the last weeks, and if you dont use wvo straight, it almost makes no sense to do the work for bio diesel. the price change is also the reason that the oil war (how i call it under us collectors) is getting harder, and recycling companies or wannabes are showing up from everywhere to make some fast bucks.
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« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 07:17:44 AM »

My son owns restaurants in the Phoenix he is really upset about the price of VO it went from 4.10 a gal to 16.00 in 2 months

good luck
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belfert
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« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 07:50:40 AM »

These guys paying $3.60 a gallon for WVO must not be using it for fuel.  By the time you pay to haul the WVO and your overhead you're at close to $4 a gallon before processing the WVO for fuel use.

I can buy dino diesel For $4 a gallon here in Minnesota today.
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« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 07:56:30 AM »

If you include all the parts you have to buy to make Bio Diesel and your labor time (use $50.00/hour), and the fact that WVO will muck up the engine, it's just not worth it.  Now if we had to burn it because dino fuel wasn't available-that would be another story.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 08:04:46 AM »

Belfert what are they doing with the WVO if not making fuel I don't know about other states but in AZ it cannot be used in the food chain again or for soap

good luck
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« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2011, 09:04:55 AM »

Ive heard of people making furniture polish out of it..... $3.60 a gallon?! $16.00 a gallon? Oh my!!!

edit: This must be a regional thing...... my brother in Idaho says he is still getting his oil for free. Of course, here in Cally, it is impossible unless you know someone and then it's illegal unless you pay fees and have $1 million insurance, a sign, the right zoning, etc., etc., etc.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2011, 10:24:52 AM by happycamperbrat » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2011, 02:50:09 PM »

If you include all the parts you have to buy to make Bio Diesel and your labor time (use $50.00/hour), and the fact that WVO will muck up the engine, it's just not worth it.  Now if we had to burn it because dino fuel wasn't available-that would be another story.  Good Luck, TomC

Alright TomC  can you explain this "Fact that WVO will muck up your engine"?  I never knew this to be a fact.  What does muck up your engine and where are you getting that information from? 

And I'll be glad when I make $50 an hour.
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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2011, 03:35:45 PM »

I cant see how anyone could justify running it.  With the time and effort you have to put in to acquire the stuff, extra filtration, cold weather issues, etc.  I think it would be cheaper to just run dino diesel.
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« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 07:38:33 AM »

I've seen plenty of pictures of the residue from WVO making deposits on the engine, and the slobber goofing up the valves that within 100,000 miles have to take the engine apart to clean it and possibly do a valve job.

Most people that are self employed are making at least $50.00/hr.  When I was driving, is making an average of $1.10/mile (back in the 1990's when fuel was down below $1.50/gal).  Averaging 60mph that would put me at making $66.00/hr.  Most plumbers make around $90.00/hr.  What does your auto shop charge?  I know our truck shop charges $110.00/hr.  Believe me, if you were in business for yourself, anything less then $50.00/hr wouldn't be worth the time.  As an employee, that's a different story since you don't have the risk of being in business for yourself.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 08:34:30 AM »

I've seen plenty of pictures of the residue from WVO making deposits on the engine, and the slobber goofing up the valves that within 100,000 miles have to take the engine apart to clean it and possibly do a valve job.

Most people that are self employed are making at least $50.00/hr.  When I was driving, is making an average of $1.10/mile (back in the 1990's when fuel was down below $1.50/gal).  Averaging 60mph that would put me at making $66.00/hr.  Most plumbers make around $90.00/hr.  What does your auto shop charge?  I know our truck shop charges $110.00/hr.  Believe me, if you were in business for yourself, anything less then $50.00/hr wouldn't be worth the time.  As an employee, that's a different story since you don't have the risk of being in business for yourself.  Good Luck, TomC

There are just to many people burning WVO without problems for anyone to say that this isn't a viable process. It is! I have seen the pics of engines with the ex port nearly closed up with carbon and muck.  Those people were using "cold" oil.  The others that were damaged didn't properly settle and filter the oil.  Contaminated fuel is bad regardless of whether it is BioD, WVO or DinoD.

John
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« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 10:53:59 AM »

I've seen plenty of pictures of the residue from WVO making deposits on the engine, and the slobber goofing up the valves that within 100,000 miles have to take the engine apart to clean it and possibly do a valve job.

Most people that are self employed are making at least $50.00/hr.  When I was driving, is making an average of $1.10/mile (back in the 1990's when fuel was down below $1.50/gal).  Averaging 60mph that would put me at making $66.00/hr.  Most plumbers make around $90.00/hr.  What does your auto shop charge?  I know our truck shop charges $110.00/hr.  Believe me, if you were in business for yourself, anything less then $50.00/hr wouldn't be worth the time.  As an employee, that's a different story since you don't have the risk of being in business for yourself.  Good Luck, TomC

There are just to many people burning WVO without problems for anyone to say that this isn't a viable process. It is! I have seen the pics of engines with the ex port nearly closed up with carbon and muck.  Those people were using "cold" oil.  The others that were damaged didn't properly settle and filter the oil.  Contaminated fuel is bad regardless of whether it is BioD, WVO or DinoD.

John
  Thank you handling my light work there JohnEd. Grin
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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 11:35:43 AM »

You guys cannot change the world.... why argue about it? There isnt enough wvo to go around anyway. Let it be....
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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2011, 12:45:26 PM »

Current production of Biodiesel would run the country for about 6 weeks.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2011, 08:03:32 PM »

Wasn't the original question about biodiesel, not WVO?  Most engine manufacturers say not to go over B20, but that is with current engines.

I suspect the biggest problem you might have with biodiesel is filter clogging and fuel lines possibly breaking down.
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« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2011, 01:04:38 AM »

Wasn't the original question about biodiesel, not WVO?  Most engine manufacturers say not to go over B20, but that is with current engines.

I suspect the biggest problem you might have with biodiesel is filter clogging and fuel lines possibly breaking down.

Biodiesel is made out of processed wvo. With current engines, I really dont know..... I have read repeatedly that they should not attempt to run vo because of the spray pattern of the injectors and because of it fooling the fuel sensors in the computers........
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« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2011, 01:58:44 AM »

My car is petrol but I happened across this warning applicable to the diesel versions that is printed in the owners manual:

"Fuels produced entirely or partly from vegetable materials - such as rapeseed oil or methyl ester made from rapeseed or other plants - are unsuitable for use in diesel engines and will invalidate any warrenty that may have been appilcable.

Such fuels are becoming increasingly widespread, but despite their apparent eco-friendliness, their reduced lubricity compared to conventional diesel fuel can damage the extremely precise tolerances found within the injection system. Premature wear of the vital sliding bearings in the injection pump is a particular problem, together with the possibility of leaks in both rubber and plastic components throughout the system.

There is also the possibility of severe build-up of carbon on the injector nozzles, together with increased combustion noise, poor cold-starting, a reduction in power and an increase in fuel consumption of up to 10 per cent"



That's a pretty damning statement about the use of even 'proper' biodiesel, never mind either new or waste veg oil. Which wouldn't stop me using it, but only in a vehicle I could afford to throw away.

Jeremy
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« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2011, 03:33:17 AM »

Jeremy, what engine do you have?
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« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2011, 03:51:38 AM »

As I said my car happens to be petrol, but that comment from the owners manual refers to the diesel versions of the same car (7 series Beemer). Sadly the BMW straight-6 diesel is also used in the L322 Range Rover, and it was that application that I was interested in. But if (or rather when) I do get an L322 that will most definitely be a vehicle that I couldn't afford to throw away

No question that modern diesel car engines are at least one generation ahead of our bus engines (probably 2 or 3 generations ahead of a 2-stroke Detroit), but presumably there's some pretty precise tolerances and critical bearing surfaces inside our injection pumps too.

Jeremy
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« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2011, 06:33:57 AM »

I have read the same from all my engine manufacture manuals.  We started our jetta on 100 percent bio diesel when it had 25000 miles.  It now has 130,000.  No problems with it at all generating from bio diesel.

My bug has the same engine 40,000 miles b100 no fuel related problems.

Excursion 45,000 b100 The only fuel related problem i have had was the screen tubes int he tank were blocked with rust and gunk.  I understand this is a common problem with Ford diesel with or without bio diesel.  So you choose which one to blame it on.  That was a 200 dollar fix.

Tractor melted a 1.5 foot return fuel line.  $1.69 and 10 minutes to fix.

Kubota zero turn lawn mower. Fuel pump went out.  Unknown if bio d was the culprit or not.  New pump 1 hour to install and $40.
I am still very very sold on alternative fuels
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« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2011, 07:18:48 AM »

I don't have a dog in this hunt but you guys need to check the John Deere site they have been using bio since the 80's have their own special little additive for it fwiw that said it was the farmers that started the movement towards the alt fuels


good luck
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:33:58 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2011, 07:36:07 AM »

As I recall, when the Ultra Low Sulfur hit the scene and the engines were failing, adding motor oil to the fuel was said to prevent pump failure.  I then heard that the zero sulfur BioD was even better at lubing and B10 was supposed to be a fix.

Excerpt from: http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/Lubricity.PDF

A 1998 review paper on fuel lubricity worldwide2 showed that diesel fuel in the US and
Canada is some of the poorest lubricity fuel found in the entire world (see Figure 1
attached). Of the 27 countries surveyed, only Canada, Switzerland, Poland and Taiwan
had poorer lubricity fuel than the US. With a mean fuel lubricity of just under the
recommended specification of an HFRR wear scar diameter of 460 microns, fully 50% of
the US fuel was found to be above that recommended by equipment manufacturers.
These US data are with diesel fuel refined to meet the current EPA restriction of 500 ppm
maximum sulfur specification. The severe hyrdrotreating required to reduce fuel sulfur
to the new EPA 2006 specification of 15 ppm sulfur maximum will cause a further
reduction in fuel lubricity compared to today’s diesel fuel, and is of concern to engine
and fuel injection equipment manufacturers.

Lubricity Benefits Provided by Biodiesel
The addition of biodiesel, even in very small quantities, has been shown to provide
increases in fuel lubricity using a variety of bench scale test methods. A diagram of the
various testing apparatus can be seen in chart provided by Lucas (attached). The two
most popular bench test methods for lubricity are the Ball on Cylinder Lubricity
Evaluator (BOCLE), and the High Frequency Reciprocating Rig (HFRR). The BOCLE is
commonly used to evaluate the lubricity of fuels or fuel blends but does a poor job of
characterizing the lubricity of fuels containing lubricity additives, while the HFRR is
commonly used for both the neat fuels and with fuels containing small amounts of
lubricity enhancing additives. end quote

It stands without question that fuel quality is regulated by the respective Gummints in every country mentioned(and not mentioned).  It would seem that the Europeans are more effective at protecting us from the abuses of the oil refiners than our domestic brand of Gummint.  I spent three years over there in the late 60's and never once noticed a D truck belching smoke and the Pa Turnpike was awash in them and I thought all that black smoke was "normal".  I haven't located the authoritative paper on the subject but I did read a few years ago that the D engines lasted longer in E and ran cleaner thru their life span.

John
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:54:33 AM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2011, 07:42:23 AM »

My brothers C18 Cat marine engines could use B30 fuel without modifications above that they were modifications needed,those were high dollar engines also over a 100 grand each.
Like it or not it is the future with the predicted fuel price of over 6 bucks a gal in 2012 don't laugh guys it is on the way
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:50:41 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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