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Author Topic: 4106 Rear Hub Advice  (Read 3617 times)
oldmansax
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« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2011, 04:57:16 AM »

You guys would panic if you went into a truck or heavy equipment  shop you know he is going wash the stuff and blow with air, check out the Cat dealers mobile guys rebuilding a 45,000 dollar Powershift transmission in the field I never saw one of those guys using surgical gloves on bearing or the races bet you Ted can relate to that.
You are not building computer chips or brain surgery here all this BS is going to make Chris paranoid.
 Concrete floors would be better than the places I saw you dump truck drivers repair something Eric I have saw you guys with gears scattered out on news paper on the ground.
 I even saw one working on a injection pump off a Cat engine on the running board he got her fixed and was up and running  LOL  

good luck

Clifford,

I'M ALREADY PARANOID!!!!!!   Grin Grin Grin Grin  I was hoping for a little company here!!!!

I know people put things back together dirty all the time & they still run pretty good, more or less... BUT, best practices would be clean.

AND, I have no idea whether or not the mechanic will wash up & air dry the parts; maybe, maybe not. I'm not there and can't judge his professionalism or demeanor. He is already breaking one of my cardinal rules by further contaminating the bearings.

I don't want to turn this into a pi$$ing contest, which is why I hesitated to post anything but Chris asked for opinions & I gave him mine.

As I said, I already know I am a paranoid, far right-wing fringe, OCD, old time, hard core, crazy lunatic mechanic, and lacking in basic intelligence and common decency.

So why do YOU own a bus?Huh!!!!!!   ROFL!!!!!!  Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


TOM
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« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2011, 05:08:16 AM »

You got it Tom I have had a bad month with a back injury and just sitting around bored to death not being able to do anything so I apologize to you guys and will sign off for a while till I can regroup here and take it out on the wife and I know that won't work for sure LOL 

good luck
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« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2011, 05:24:55 AM »

When I rebuilt my 4106 axle, I replaced the inner seal and seal ring, greased the bearings, installed the hub, rtv'd the axle flange and installed it. The inner seal, as with every floating axle I've ever seen, is an oil seal that prevents the axle oil from leaking into the brake drum, or plate. The grease is temporary, until the axle oil reaches the bearings, and some oil is held in the bearing recess thereafter so there isn't a dry period until the oil flows again. That is the reason thaT THE AXLE OIL LEVEL IS SO IMPORTANT. As for dirt and other contaminants, not in MY machinery. Look at some pieces from sand- or dirt- operated equipment and then decide if you want crap in yours.
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oldmansax
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« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2011, 05:32:13 AM »

You got it Tom I have had a bad month with a back injury and just sitting around bored to death not being able to do anything so I apologize to you guys and will sign off for a while till I can regroup here and take it out on the wife and I know that won't work for sure LOL 

good luck

You do know I'm just messing with you, right?

Us old guys got to stick together!

On a serious  note, I probably would have a cow if I had to take something to a shop now. I had a cow when I had to take something to the shop back in the '60s. That's why I'm setting here with greasy fingernails!!!

Both of us should be retired!  LOL!

I can see the picture now...... on some tropic island...... sun & sand......... palm trees waving in the breast...... native girls bringing coconuts & bananas.......

Me, you & BK laying on the beach in our Speedos ........


GUESS I RUINED THAT PICTURE!!!!!    Grin Grin Grin

TOM
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« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2011, 06:18:25 AM »

WHAT ABOUT THE MYSTERY C-CLAMP IN PHOTO. sorry my cap lock was on. i was not hollering!
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oldmansax
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« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2011, 07:00:22 AM »

When I rebuilt my 4106 axle, I replaced the inner seal and seal ring, greased the bearings, installed the hub, rtv'd the axle flange and installed it. The inner seal, as with every floating axle I've ever seen, is an oil seal that prevents the axle oil from leaking into the brake drum, or plate. The grease is temporary, until the axle oil reaches the bearings, and some oil is held in the bearing recess thereafter so there isn't a dry period until the oil flows again. That is the reason thaT THE AXLE OIL LEVEL IS SO IMPORTANT. As for dirt and other contaminants, not in MY machinery. Look at some pieces from sand- or dirt- operated equipment and then decide if you want crap in yours.

You're kidding, I hope.

TOM
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2011, 07:18:43 AM »

If you decide to take an oil sample, go to the Rush Truck Center on Gila Ridge Rd. It is just west of Purcell's. They will give you a sterile container for the oil and do the analysis for about $10-15.  They did my last one for free. Grin   Also if you need more parts you might try McKay Heavy Duty Supply, 928-373-2277.  Call them first and see if anybody is there, last time i stopped by they were closed, might have even shut down that store, but they do have one in El Centro which is about 60 miles west of you.
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« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2011, 02:03:37 PM »

In that one pic is the axle splines laying on the concrete floor?
As others have said. I would cringe with the way that some of the parts are laying around.

I made a video of the guy reassembling our hub and axle. I'm sure OldManSax would watch it in horror - parts dropping, bearings on the ground, gobs of black silicon to seal everything....

But I am hoping he did a good enough job to get us relocated closer to some more expertise. 

I give the mechanic at Ed Whitehead's a lot of credit - he was willing to let me watch, take pictures, ask questions, and he explained everything he was doing to me.  He may not be doing it in the ideal knut-approved fashion for how to best care for a bus older than he is, but at least he didn't make me pace in a waiting room and not even get to see how it was done.

Once I get the video edited and uploaded, I'll post a link here.

Cheers!
 
  - Chris
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« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2011, 02:34:39 PM »

Chris, as I mentioned on FB... you really need to look at all the lug studs.
another thing, seeing the seal wiper on the back of the axle housing leads me to believe you have a wet hub.
Also, like Clifford mentioned, Keeping the bearings and hub, 'clinically clean' is kind of a waste of time. Have you seen what comes out of a differential, even if nothing is wrong?

By the way, if you look at the axle housing, very little oil will travel up the housing or the axle to deliver to the bearings, (poop and oil don't travel uphill). That's why they have that little plug on the side of the hub, to add about a pint or a pint and a half to add oil to the hub.

As for your mechanic not using a clean room, jeez, these guys would be shocked at what goes on in a transit shop! Those buses run for a half million miles or more in the harshest environment possible.

My only pick with your mechanic is that he had to cut the stud out with a grinder.... doesn't make sense. He still had to drive out the part that was still inside the hub, why not drive it out to begin with and forgo any possible damage to the hub?

OK, off my soap box, awaiting Jim Shepard's severe tongue lashing.

 
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« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2011, 04:20:43 PM »

My only pick with your mechanic is that he had to cut the stud out with a grinder.... doesn't make sense. He still had to drive out the part that was still inside the hub, why not drive it out to begin with and forgo any possible damage to the hub?

He actually didn't need to cut the stud - he just had to cut the nut, and then have a machine shop with a press force the old stud out, and a new one in.

  - Chris
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« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2011, 05:30:56 PM »

When I rebuilt my 4106 axle, I replaced the inner seal and seal ring, greased the bearings, installed the hub, rtv'd the axle flange and installed it. The inner seal, as with every floating axle I've ever seen, is an oil seal that prevents the axle oil from leaking into the brake drum, or plate. The grease is temporary, until the axle oil reaches the bearings, and some oil is held in the bearing recess thereafter so there isn't a dry period until the oil flows again. That is the reason thaT THE AXLE OIL LEVEL IS SO IMPORTANT. As for dirt and other contaminants, not in MY machinery. Look at some pieces from sand- or dirt- operated equipment and then decide if you want crap in yours.

You're kidding, I hope.

TOM

I hope so too, Tom.  I was surprised that nobody jumped on that.  That stuff about diff oil migrating out to the wheel to lube the bearings is "cruel Humor".  As Dallas said " .....doesn't flow up hill."  One of the yarns I heard was that the diff oil was carried to the bearing by flowing on the axle as the wheels turned during driving.  That is a crock!  My axles have always been pretty dry when I pulled them.  On my old Winnie I don't have an outer seal and "some oil" does in fact get out to the bearings and thins the grease and "flows" around both bearings.  That is just incidental and isn't planned to be part of the lubrication scheme.  The grease being slightly diluted with diff oil doesn't seem to compromise the bearings lub requirements.  I researched it and learned that the "official" version called for the rear bearings to be packed with fresh grease in the exact same manner as a front wheel bearing.

The wet bearings are a completely different story.  They are not intended to be lubed by drawing down the diff oil reservoir.  If the wheel reservoir leaks down it must be replenished at the wheel.  Any need to replenish the wheel reservoir should be investigated and the leak fixed.  No grease was involved as far as I read.  I think the wet hub would dissipate heat better than a greased unit but wouldn't wear as long though the difference might be moot.

Chris, What an adventure you are having.  So far it doesn't seem all that scary.  Expensive, maybe, but, everything you are doing is a forever service/repair except the tires and they should go seven years.

My very best wishes to you guys and may the wind always be at your back,

John

I would have had ALL the studs replaced and carefully looked over the studs on the other wheels as well.  I think the way you determine if they are bad is to measure the length but I am not positive that is true and I sure don't know how you would do that.
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« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2011, 07:20:56 AM »

Yes, TEMPORARY. My information comes from a fellow who owns JR Engine Service in Maryland. He maintains a large fleet of school buses and trucks, and he has an absolutely outstanding reputation. He personally oversaw my replacement of my 4106 differential and axles and spring brake installation, and I asked a plethora of questions while I was doing the job. In addition, I have removed at least 20 axles of this type over the years on my own fleet of construction trucks, and I have NEVER seen a set of bearings fall out of a hub that weren’t coated in oil, not grease, as long as the axle oil level was maintained correctly, nor have I ever seen an outer oil seal. I also make it a  point to put a catch pan under the hub when removing the axle, since I always get a puddle of oil in the removal.  So, I looked at the 4106 manual today (I didn’t have it when I built my bus) and,lo!, there is a drawing of an outer seal. It was not in my bus when I took it apart, and it wasn’t there when I put it together. I then looked at my MC9 manual. It says “Drive axles use a single oil seal assembly and are lubricated from the supply of oil in the differential housing.” I can only assume that the manufacturer has decided that an oil bath is preferable in later models. That oil bath is what dilutes the grease on the bearings, and the oil is what lubricates the bearings in their old age. That is why I, and John (JR), said “temporary.” As a result, I can only conclude that we are all correct, but since I didn’t know of the existence of an outer seal, I may have given incorrect information. I would never do that intentionally, and I apologize if I am wrong.  I have no desire to argue or dispute the words of anyone. I simply know what I know, and I learn from long years of talking, reading, watching and doing. My principal reason for reading this board is to learn, and sometimes share, not to fight.
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« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2011, 01:20:33 PM »

Bottom,

My post needs clarification.  I "seem" to be contradicting you outright and I am not.  My manual
says to check the bearings and re-lube them annually.  I did that ONCE at a shop.  The owner
questioned my judgement on wanting the work done but complied.  He loosened the axle nuts
and gave her a wallop and , lo and behold, grease diluted with diff oil oozed out and into the pan
he had placed.  He looked up at me and said "why do you want to disturb this after only 15
thousand miles?  I shrugged and told him to "tighten it back down".  Had I been doing that job, as
I had planned in the first place, I would have continued with the disassemble and re-packed those
bearings.  It was the fact that he was pushing 40 and the "look" on his face that clued me in.  The
book was "OVERKILL" and anal...... but it was right, eventually.  This was after the initial failure due to insufficient grease.

I had an inner seal and no outer seal.  Oil did eventually migrate into the bearing area and dilute
the grease and wash some of it back into the diff on an exchange.  It took a long long time before
the bearing was running on straight diff oil.  The "clean, re-pack, readjust" annual PM prevented
damage due to insufficient lube if followed and it was serious overkill in my application.  Now,
here is the rub, as I see it.  We are both right and I didn't mean to infer otherwise.  It is suicidal,
bearing wise, to assemble those bearings with a "smear" of grease "cause the diff oil lubes them".
It doesn't do that at the outset and without proper grease packing the bearings soon run dry and
fail.  That HAPPENED TO ME AND I  LEARNED I HAD BEEN SABOTAGED.  That mech
told me that the book was wrong and that if I insisted on having him pack the bearing I would
"create a blockage" and the oil wouldn't get to the inner bearing.  I figured he was the one with 30
years experience and shrugged it off as the book "was wrong". He told me that the diff oil would
be on the bearings in a block of travel and that the light coating of oil was the way he had done it
for many years.   I  hadn't been looking over their shoulder, didn't make any insistences on the
job, had no conversations with the line mechs and was well received by the professional owner
so I had done nothing to piss anybody off that I could tell.  I only noticed this because I was
walking thru the shop to the customer waiting room after returning from lunch and politely asked
if they weren't supposed to be "packed".  Big smile and a patronizing explanation for the
"missinformed" owner.  OK!  I sure don't know everything and absolutely nothing about medium
duty trucks.  I just got a book.  Another mech at that shop took pity on me, I later deduced, and conjured up an excuse for me to stay at the shop after closing to supposedly adjust my rear brakes and what he actually did was raise one side and overfill the diff and he repeated that with the remaining side so I only made it as far as I did cause he flooded the bearings.  First time I checked the diff oil level a couple quarts came out all over everything and me.

They also maladjusted the brake pedal so the rears drug and locked up when I stopped a couple
miles down the road.  Limped back and they readjusted the linkage but still had it too tight so it
went 50 miles that time. I fixed that in a station off the Freeway at one AM.  

They rammed a cutting tool into my disk brake rotor while they were being turned so I had to
RON for that to be delivered and Dodge no longer made them.  Shop paid..

I also found a loose lug nut a month later and in further checking I then found may others that
were loose.  To many to be chance and the ones that weren't loose were proper tight.  Inside duals
were all loose.  I lifted her with a small bottle jack so you know I worked up one sweet sweat.  

They replaced my kings and had them way too tight and she would not return to straight so I
literally ricocheted down my lane at 40 in 70 mph traffic and was a very busy beaver keeping it in my lane at that.  It took most of the following day for them to redo the kings and they were still too tight and I was assured they would loosen up in a 20 miles or so.....they didn't but they became less and less of a challenge after a couple years.  Grrr.

It took a while for my trusting nature and inherent respect for those that have worked in a field
for years to be completely overcome by the harsh reality and cold hard facts.  But I did finally
wise up and I  pondered those guys for quite a while.  It all seemed so far fetched and
inexplicable.  I returned to that area a year later and visited with a friend that owns a trucking
company.  I mentioned my dismal experiences with that shop and he gushed that I had stumbled
into "THE TRUCK REPAIR SHOP FROM HELL".  He apologized for not warning me but this
all transpired without my having seen him for months before I left so he knew none of it and
didn’t have an opportunity to help with a warning.  Seems that the owner was a really nice guy
but his crew despised him maybe because he was an immigrant and had passed them by in
becoming a shop owner.....who knows.  His office help liked him fine, as I learned later.  My
sorry tale was often repeated and the shop’s rep was in tatters but times were good and he stayed
in business only because he made it on non-repeat or informed customers.  The Forestry service
nearly bankrupted him with warranty work on Off Road Tank Trucks because his
repaired/rebuilt/serviced differentials failed in a month and that piece of shenanigans put the lives
of firefighters at risk and the wind and budget cuts is more than enuf for those guys to contend
with.  I called the shop and made an appointment.

I went into the shop to “have them check front wheel bearings” and adjust as needed.  The mech
came into the customer lounge to give me the “bad news”.  Seemed that my bearings were “way
out of adjustment” and had damaged themselves.  I  needed a complete rebuild of my front
wheels.  He didn’t recognize me nor the coach he had rebuilt the King pins on a year before.  I
dutifully sucked my gums, looked glum and told him I would make an appointment for later as I
was leaving town and flying back home for a month.  I went out to the coach with him and hit the
tire, raised off the lift, with the heal of my hand and commented that it didn’t seem loose to me
and I was told that a dial indicator had showed the bearing to be way out of spec.  We parted with
a handshake and smiles and my comment of “well it sure isn’t your fault that the thing crapped
out”.  I waited till they were rolling Daddy’s Girl off of the lift before I walked outside to the
parking lot to “have a smoke”.  Having gotten there before opening, I had watched the employees
arrive.  Those mechs were driving new pickups, at least three of them were, and the fourth had his
one year old 4X4 Toyota all tricked out with custom paint and such.  After my smoke I went into
the office and made my appointment and picked up my keys.  Later that day, a few minutes after
the shop closed, I happened to drive past, clear across town, and saw a group surrounding the pickups in the corner of the lot.  I didn’t have to stop to know that some cretin had keyed those trucks badly with a beer can opener.

The next month I went back in for my wheel bearing change.  After the paper work had been
completed  I waited the obligatory one hour reading my book in the lounge.  No biggie as I am retired.   When I saw the coach being pulled into the bay I went out to talk to the mech.  I asked that he show me the “dial indicator thingy” as another shop had told me the bearings were perfectly OK.  He declined and said the shop’s dial indicator was broken.  I went back into the office and asked that my RV be
taken from the shop till we could get a proper test and their dial indicator came back from the
repair shop.  Got blank stares on that one but they said they would back out my coach.  Again I
went out to the parking lot and had a smoke while they moved Daddy’s Girl to the parking lot.  I
did not happen to drive past the lot that evening or note that in addition to the trucks being again
keyed with a beer can opener the tires had been slashed.  I did call the local PD and tell them that
I worked in that shop and that I had overheard employees plotting to turn in false claims and
bilking/defrauding their insurance companies.  I have no idea what the cops might have done
with that info or the vandalism reports that are needed to be filed with an insurance claim.  I do
know that the repair jobs that were done on two of the trucks was really shabby in the first
instance , I noted that on my return visit.  Now I don’t know if a deductible is/was involved but I
do know that dealing with an insurance company is a unsavory experience and the body shop
isn’t much better.  Then there is all that coordination and stuff and deprecation associated with a
vehicle that has been repainted. Then there is the paranoia.  Bad luck!  But I don’t rejoice in
another’s misfortune....I truly do not ever do that.  I also don’t hold a grudge.

Now, Bottom, I  have shared this sordid tale with you to help explain why this topic is seared into
my brain.  I have discussed it with many a mech and shop owner.  The consensus is that if you
get gear oil out when you break the axle loose then you should continue with the re-packing
service.  If you get the thick ooze you would expect from grease and diff oil mixing then you are
good for another year in RV service.  The book, “Dodge Motor Home RM-400 chassis”, is
explicit in its instruction to re-pack yearly and check for contamination of the grease.  It states
that in black and white and I will mail any that has serious doubts a copy of page O-14 as a
service and no sour grapes in the least..  I am not clear on what busses come with a outer seal or
the consequences of leaving it out.  I’m just say’n that in my very limited and dismal experience,
differential oil is not supposed to mix with axle bearing’s grease....by design.  It is a one or the
other kinda deal. It’s just that a little oil in there may not be grounds for panic.  But, if a outer
seal is called for.....install it whether the last guy, PO, did or not.  Actually, I am thinking that we
are both saying the same thing in a roundabout way.

Bottom, I am concerned that you think I might have gotten into a pissing contest with you.  I
didn’t intend that and I don’t think that ever happened between us.  I hope this helps you
understand where I got my information and my concern for a general misunderstanding.  I can only
conclude that the wheel bearings on a bus are soooo over engineered as to be able to get
sufficient lube from oil on a bearing that was originally called for to be grease packed.  On that I
have to defer and I note that in changing over to a “wet hub” you simply delete the outer seal and
fill with diff oil. Be well my fellow Knut....we are both on the same side.

Your friend, The lover and not a fighter,

John
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 01:24:23 PM by JohnEd » Logged

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« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2011, 02:23:00 PM »

From section 19, page 2. GMC PD4106 manual X-6114:
"Front and rear hubs have oil seals at inner end to prevent leakage of wheel bearing lubricant into brake drums. Inner oil seals also prevent water and dirt from entering hubs and contaminating wheel bearing lubricant. Oil seals at outer ends of rear hubs PREVENT differential lubricant from entering hubs and mixing with wheel bearing lubricant."
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« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2011, 03:39:39 PM »

John and Dallas, thanks to both of you for the reply. I read the book, and I agree with you. My point is primarily that the rear bearings seem to do just fine on axle oil, and I believe that it is the most common arrangement. MCI even states that bearing inspection isn't necessary if the AXLE OIL LEVEL IS MAINTAINED. In 35 years I've never seen a failed bearing in a properly filled axle, nor have I ever seen an outer seal. It makes me think that the manufacturers realized later on that greased and segregated bearings weren't necessary. After all, the tags and front bearings often run in oil, not grease. I expect that we've all seen some unusual things over the years, and  there's always more than one way to cook a hot dog. If ever I give advice again, I'll be sure to preface it with the fact that it represents only my opinion unless I quote the manual directly.
And I still think that we're all friends here.
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