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Author Topic: Cement  (Read 3913 times)
JohnEd
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« on: July 04, 2011, 10:07:06 AM »

A bus topic?  You bet'cha.

I am having my curb removed and a driveway installed.  I will be driving across the new curb, across the strip between the curb and sidewalk and a short strip from the sidewalk into my property.  I plan to have compacted gravel put in to actually support the bus.  44 feet long gravel "pad".  Am I correct in say that the concrete must require reinforcement with rebar?  How thick should the concrete be?  I expect the thing to support a Prevost.  What might one of those weigh.  40 ft, but the one I get might have marble in the kit and ba.  Any body have info on this?  Lessons learned?

I am going to contract this work.  Things like a beveled edge at the transition to gravel?  Clueless.  And that is the tip of this iceberg, I am sure.  I want to at least have some intelligent questions to ask before I talk with contractors and get bids.

I figure that some of you have faced this problem and at the very least know what doesn't work.

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2011, 10:13:09 AM »

6 inches reinforced concrete at least John you will be wasting your money with 4 inch and wire mesh fwiw my shop floor and the entrance aprons are 8 inches thick,get some info from a soils testing co in Eugene you never know it may require a lime or flyash sub base with a 1 ft of base materiel then the concrete you never know I never did work in that area so I cannot help you all areas are different

good luck
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 10:40:59 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2011, 10:26:15 AM »

The bed preparation under the concrete is as important as the concrete from what I have learned.  Look into how deep the gravel bed needs to be, and the gravel size.  I kind of like gravel for the parking spot, it drains well.  Again, it needs to be thick.  About twice as thick as I thought it needed to be   Grin

Brian
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« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2011, 10:42:59 AM »

John -

Some of those high-end glitzy Prevost's are in the 54,000 lb range when ready to roll.

So tell the folk you're contracting w/ it's got to be able to support 30 tons sitting on it w/o cracking.  That gives you some overkill wiggle room, even if you don't get a glitzmobile.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 10:48:21 AM »

   Concrete  with fiber as reinforcment (mixed in)  at least 6in. thick, now width 12 feet, so one can work in bays.  Like others good drainage, deep gravel/stone base. If you go 10foot wide Huh go walk around an 8 ft. wide unit and see how much room you have for upkeep of the area grass/weeds/vegetation/etc....  Washing/waxing no wet mess to walk in.  
    Like others approach pad need deeper, cause stopping and starting is more stress.
    Rebar not always needed if useing fiber.
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« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011, 10:52:23 AM »

You can also up the sack mix on concrete for more strength and river rock in concrete makes a stronger mix than crushed stone in cement,the geo/mats help strengthen a area also  

good luck
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« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2011, 10:58:36 AM »

JOHN,
Appears that you want to Re and Re a city or municipal curb and sidewalk..They have specific guidelines for this and will provide the necessary regulations and engineered drawings. You shall also require the [$$$$.$$] permits and inspections. A typical 4 inch
city sidewalk does not have rebar in it and will not support the weight of the coach. Design the transitions, between curb and sidewalk and opposite side,carefully to eliminate hazzards to the [[trip and sue]] pedestrians. Crushed limestone or roadbase will compact better than plain round rock gravel. make sure your contractor has all the necessay permits, insurances etc.
HTH
Bob
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« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2011, 11:01:47 AM »

Yep, they call that a curb cut permit make sure your contractor can pull that permit or you will have 2 different contractors most curb cuts require a bonded contractor 99% of the time I had to pull those for my subs 

good luck
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 11:05:52 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2011, 01:38:47 PM »

Most gutters are about 6 inches thick.  8 inches at the back of the curb if it is going to butt up against a driveway. 
  I’ve guided many a concrete truck over  gutters of this dimension.   Didn’t crack too many. 
   If it was my driveway (heavy load) I’d make sure it had a good base and 8 inches minimum of concrete in the gutter area.  2 pieces of rebar running the length of it.  Although fiber mesh seems to work well too. 

  You might ask about Hi-Early concrete.  Reaches full strength    quickly.   With regular mud I’d wait 30 days before putting a huge load on it.  Ask your contractor, he’ll know about this stuff.

John M.
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John M.
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« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 01:47:51 PM »

You guys are great.  I have the "curb cut permit".  $370.  Not bad if I am getting inspections that actually upgrade the quality of the construction in this city.  past experience leads exactly in the opposite direction.  We can still hope.

I have talked to numerous contractors that tell me "I will not accept any work within the Eugene city limits solely because of the inspectors".  My experience, as well.

John
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« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 02:03:40 PM »

Calcium Chloride is added for a fast set (hi early) in colder weather most City,County,Federal and State agencies won't allow it except in emergency use it works best with Flyash ( some don't allow flyash) in concrete never heard of it reaching full strength before regular concrete all the 28 day breaks we did on it were not as strong (high) as regular concrete the 7 day break was better though
 It was a no/no for Wal/Mart except in manholes or inlets bottoms so was flyash concrete the finishers love the flyash concrete I am not a fan either never used it on my personal stuff  

good luck
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« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2011, 06:03:11 PM »

We used calcium in the winter, spring and late fall, and if it was really cold, hot water.  The Hi-Early concrete, if I recall correctly, is a special mud designed to reach full strength very fast.  We built an entire 3 story parking garage out of it.  They wanted to be able to use the garage as soon as possible.  It's still standing twenty years later, must have worked!      jm
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John M.
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« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2011, 06:17:46 PM »

Yea but a parking garage is 6000 or a 8000 lb mix also most decks are 6000 lbs mix and uprights and beams are 8000lb lot of difference than the 4000 lb flat work concrete at least they were on the ones I built

good luck
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2011, 02:05:11 PM »

My Father built a Bus Barn in Illinois in the fall.  Temps were dropping and they calcium ed the mix.  One of the trucks got stuck in wet mud and the pour was delayed.  Years later the foundation in that trucks pour crumbled and had to be repaired at great expense with pinning, jacking and and re-pouring (not fun) be careful with cement handling using calcium.

Brice
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2011, 03:41:51 PM »

You have to remember that you are also only talking about a little area that you occasionally will be driving over. Best to err on the safe side but I would let the local contractor explain your options. He does it for a living and is familiar with your area. My bigger concern would be the gravel pad that the bus sits on. I have a gravel area on the side of my shop that the bus will sink to it's axles in if I park it there. A better option may be a crushed concrete or what we call white rock in a 1 1/4 " size. The jagged edges of the rock interlock and make a good base. If you live in a wet area gravel won't support a bus. I'd charge you 2 cents for my opinion but then I'd feel guilty.... Wink ps.... In our area they don't tear out the curb and repour the approach. They grind the concrete down.
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« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2011, 04:03:26 PM »

I reading this thread with great interest.  I'm preparing to build a bus barn/shop and will be about 60' from the street.  I have the desire to pour the approach apron with concrete at the curb cut about 10' toward my property line then gravel/rock to the door of the barn.  I was thinking rock the size of railroad bed ballast which will alleviate dust as compared to crushed limestone. 

The city will accept a 10' approach, but I don't want to mess up the rock driveway and do it wrong. 

David
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« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2011, 04:05:26 PM »

A better option may be a crushed concrete or what we call white rock in a 1 1/4 " size. The jagged edges of the rock interlock and make a good base. If you live in a wet area gravel won't support a bus. I'd charge you 2 cents for my opinion but then I'd feel guilty.... Wink ps.... In our area they don't tear out the curb and repour the approach. They grind the concrete down.



My driveway and shop for that matter are 8" deep (set on rebar 18" on center) and the rock is spread out around the shop to a depth of 6" to 8" deep.  80% of my rock is recycled concrete that I get at a discounted rate (cheaper than crushed virgin stone) and it is holding up well.  The more you drive on it Scott, the more it packs it, after two years, it is about the consistency of cement, just a little bit loose on top. 

At first the bus would settle into it, and I would have to take a tractor to it and re-spread it, now I seldom do anything to it except occasional dress up a with a yard rake pulled behind a ATV.

Works for me.

BCO
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« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2011, 04:15:34 PM »

All crushed rock base material have a binder (fines) of some type if you wash the crushed rock like they do for concrete mix it won't bind together and no way to bind river rock gravel except cement and sand then it becomes concrete.
Babell2 even concrete without calcium ( calcium will heat faster) if it gets hot in the truck will crumble later that load should have been sent back.
Calcium is not a good way to go hot water will do the same in cold weather but lots of plants don't have access to hot water so they add calcium I just was never allowed to use calcium in my concrete in the last 20 years.
David railroad's don't want the top 6 in of rock to bind the ties float I never built but one track and it cost me us not knowing what we were doing  lol  

good luck
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« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2011, 05:20:03 PM »

  Quality and strength also depend on how you order cement. 
The ratio of sand vs cement is the pound strength.
I agree that 6 inch concrete is needed over 4 inches.
Most  places ask what bag mix you want or what pound  standard is 3500#, go higher for a bus.
When you order it a concrete company should give info on best mix for your job.

Lonnie
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« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2011, 06:11:39 PM »

Crushed concrete is a great base unless you get a load with some cut up aluminum pieces in it. then it's take the tire off the tractor time and head for Les Schwab.   Around here, which is north of eugene a bit, we have clay, and i've hauled in 54 loads of rock on my place just so i can drive on it.. and heavy equipment can still get stuck. If i was doing a truck pad, i would get out an 337 or so bobcat and scrape out about an extra foot or two deep.. add rock and use a small pavement roller  and get it real level, then build a reinforced 6 inch pad on top. I would also put in air, water, elect, sewer, etc close, as well as some places to hook to set in the concrete just in case i needed to use a comealong or portapower, etc.
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2011, 08:53:40 PM »

Chev,

Being a "homie" you might just have put a stake in the heart of my little project.   I live at a lows point in the surrounding blocks.  Wifey was told that Monroe St, ours, was a creek bed in the very old days and the intersection of Monroe an 13th was the intersection of two different streams as 13th used to be a spur of Amazon Creek.  The surface soil is rock hard clay-like stuff and I think it was trucked in.  I recently installed new electric service and with that project I had to drive in 12 foot copper clad grounding rods.  I drove them at an angle under the house foundation as the water table here is really high,  in winter especially.  I put the pointy end down on the dirt which is 4 inches of gravel on top and leaned my 270 pounds onto the stake.  I pushed the thing into the ground FIVE FEET before I had to use the post driver the first time.  This must be a filled in lot and what is under it is wet sand.  We have a sump under the house that will start whenever we water the flower garden.  Curiously, I trucked in 3/4 minus and laid in 4 inches and that holds the 13,000 pound Winnie standing on those high flotation 19.5 X 8 Swampers.  Just to confuse me I guess.

I never intended to NOT involve a concrete contractor in this adventure but you guys have certainly opened my eyes.  I am smart enuf to not use river bed gravel or crushed river rock for anything but concrete but that is about the extent of my expertise.  This job may well work out to be to hard to do.

That tip about not breaking out the curb but instead grinding it down was  a gem.....if I can do that and if it is cheaper cause it sure sounds "greener".

Well, the plot thickens.  I'll make appointments on Monday to find out where I am.

Thank you all,


John
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« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2011, 09:42:17 PM »

I was wondering just where your location was at, since Eugene and springfield has lotsa stuff like that. BTW, there can be other city/county problems there other than the inspectors which can be difficult.

I don't think you will have trouble building a pad as long as you prepare the ground properly. The neighbor adjoining my property to the west of me had to excavate 4' down and fill and compact the whole thing back to grade just to install a mobile on his 10 ac lot. Good thing he had all the equipment to do so.  I installed a mobile about 600' from his about three years ago, but i put rock on the spot and rolled it a lot, so that when the county showed up they thought it was great, and I didn't have to do anything except get the permits for the additional structure.. (I thought I might have to do what he did, so it was kinda a preemptive strike against that... and thank God, it worked)

Hope the city doesn't show up and say you gotta dig down several feet...I bet they will just let you put in a 6" pad. 
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2011, 06:54:04 AM »

Chevy, they won't make you do that on a drive for building they do to remove the expansive clay called select fill some Wal/Marts I had to under cut as deep as 6 feet and fill back with select fill try that on a 240,000 sf pad LOL  most select material has to have PI of 10 or lower clay is in the high teens or 20's index

good luck
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« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2011, 07:11:52 AM »

Chevy, they won't make you do that on a drive for building they do to remove the expansive clay called select fill some Wal/Marts I had to under cut as deep as 6 feet and fill back with select fill try that on a 240,000 sf pad LOL

good luck

My shop (50X70) took 18 loads of Oklahoma select for the pad.

BCO
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« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2011, 08:38:29 AM »

John
   You really don't need a contractor unless you just don't want to mess with it.
Pouring a slab is not to bad if you get some Friends together for a day of fun.

How you order the concrete is critical
     #3500 is basic strength
Not sure what the rating is for high strength concrete

Lonnie
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« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2011, 09:03:14 AM »

John after this I will leave this post alone when pouring concrete don't let your contractor pour your slab with over a 2 1/2 slump on the concrete most flat work contractors like a 5 or 6 in slump so it will flow.
 2 in slumps are hard to work but the concrete will be stronger, cures better won't crack as bad and last longer and don't let the contractor use a jitterbug to push the rock down and leave just the topping for a easy finish, adding water to concrete only weakens it pour it and make him cut the joints every 20 ft that should work in Eugene
The standard mix for 3000 lb concrete is a 141 lbs per yard or sack and a half as contractors call it but now most use 94 lbs of cement with 47 lbs of flyash.
 I had my own batch plant and trucks for a few years till the big guys bought me out   


good luck
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« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2011, 09:51:07 AM »

I didn't comment in you area because I'm not familur with you soil . In the midwest when we get real unstable soil we do lime or Kiln dust stablestation where we till dust into unstable soil to make it harden the sub soil so we can have a good foundation to put concrete upon.  sounds like your in good hands . I made a living with concrete for years had 4 pump trucks of my own. keep the slump down--3 or under-- they will bitch but you will have better job. on road work on slip form machines I ran 3/4 inch slump you could actually walk up the pile they dumped out of the placer in front of the slip form machine.  Amazing how much our board members have in common. Glad I'm concrete free in my retirement!!
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« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2011, 10:26:28 AM »

Wow Bob I had 1 80ft Schwing that was enough for me lol if you kept four pumpers running no reason bus building is easy for you building a space shuttle is easier than keeping one going and about as cheap

good luck
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« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2011, 11:04:18 AM »

The big pump had 150 ft of boom and could handle 3 mix trucks at hopper  lot of boom flex--you know what I mean.  4000 yard pours.  no more! done with that.   Ot I know   Life is good  just like a kid in a sand box!   Bob
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« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2011, 11:22:48 AM »

Please don't anyone stop with the comments and advice now.  I got lots more opportunities to shoot the rest of my toes off with simple mistakes.

While I have poured and finished a couple hundred yards of concrete in my time, it was as a home owner or friend or relative.  I am bearing down hard on 70 (69 and counting) so I don't bear down anywhere as hard, if at all, as I used to.  Me doing any part of this project, beside grunting my support from a comfortable and cool seat, is no longer an option.  Wish it were different.

How can I tell what sort of prep and foundation I need for the gravel park area?  I think I need some sort of survey and I am going to assume that the concrete contractor will be wise to that.

When I get a read on the total cost and make a decision I will ask more pointed questions of this repository of wisdom that has never ceased to amaze me in its depth or breadth.  Thanks to you all.


John

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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2011, 12:56:43 PM »

John, Non reinforced concrete poured on grade is only as good as the subgrade it is poured on. You have a couple of problems, One the imported fill and two the ground water. If the fill has been there for a while and is performing Ok then all you have to do is tear it up 12 inches down and compact it back in 6 inch lifts. Add enough water to make it bind together. If you don't get pumping of water up through the fill while conpacting you are good to go. When done compacting do a roll test the check the compaction. This can be done by driving your bus on it to see if there is any soft spots.
 The concrete mix I would use is a 4000 # mix.The mix should have somewhere around 600# of cement in it. You can subsitute 15 or 20% of the cement with flyash. Air content of between 5 and 8 %, and it can have a water reducing add mixture to help the water cement ratio. Flyash is fine. It will get its strength a little slower but will get stronger in the long run. A 4 inch slump is fine. We pour bridge decks with a 4 inch slump all day long. You will get a better job than trying to pour to dry. If you pour to dry you will need to vibrate and possibly use a machine.
 I would pour 6 inches thick if the subgrade is OK. Fibremesh is a good add to the mix ( 1 1/2 poundls per c.y. ). If you don't use fibremesh than use #4 rebar 12 inches on center both ways bricked up to the center of the slab.
 When you pour don't over work the slab. Screed it, bull float it. Fresno it, broom it , and cure it. There are two kinds of concrete, concrete that is cracked and concrete that is going to crack. Help it crack by tooling joints or sawing joints 12 feet centers max. I prefer to saw joints it makes for a smoother slab. Then caulk the joints with a good caulk you can get at Home Depot.
 You will not have to wait 30 days to use the slab. With the above mix you will get 80% strength in one week and can use the slab in two weeks.
You can ask the redi mix company for test results of the mix to see how it will preform.
 If you subgrade is not Ok you can use a structural slab. 10 or 12 inches thick with two layers of # 5 rebar 12 inches on center both ways. Use the same mix as above ith out the fibremesh.

If you need more call me 303-591-0372

Good Luck Wayne
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« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2011, 01:25:38 PM »

Lots of floating roads around like Wayne said:actually anchored off with cables to hold in place with dead men. We are explaining extreme circumstances. Your local guy will treat you rite just ask for refrences and look at some work at least a year old.   Bob.  The little knowledge you have will keep him on his toes.
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« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2011, 01:44:34 PM »

Looks like Co has different specs for bridges Wayne I looked at Ok and Tex, Tex will allow flyash for paving not on bridge decks same as AZ on the slump 2 in max chilled water over 95 degrees.
That is hard to think of 600 lbs of cement in 4000 lb concrete the rock must be getting real soft there now, I could get a 28 day break over 4000# using 400 lbs of cement with 1 1/2 inch river rock in Houston 
City of Tulsa no flyash 2 in slump for all concrete paving and bridge decks.
I am trying to find the specs for the Jefferson County Jail on what the mix was on the 8000 lb that stuff was nasty in July .  
Lol what did you guys use for concrete from Limon to Denver that was the worst section of interstate in the nation.Flyash maybe a thing of the past if the chief in DC gets his way and closes all the coal fired plants  


Call me I have all officers in place now for the club  OT

good luck

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« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2011, 03:18:18 PM »

Too bad you aren't out in the country like us up here, we would fix you right up with the equipment  and steve would do the concrete. He last did the rural fire station concrete where the full water trucks are parked all the time. That job took some extra time because of the big floor drains that went to the ditch. (Haha.. try that in town   Grin ) I mostly watched.. cept for doing some excavation with one of the old 331 bobcats in the front of the building.
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