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Author Topic: 4905 Safety Inspection--Now Depressed!!  (Read 3375 times)
pabusnut
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« on: July 18, 2011, 09:03:40 AM »

 Sad My long awaited world tour is probably now cancelled!

The state safety inspection on my 1973 4905 revealed several major items that the previous shop apparently shouldn't have left pass. One major item is a bad tie rod end on the steering and bad joint at the steering gear.  The second major item is brake linings that are starting to crack, and one shoe on the rear wheel that is completely backed off while the other one is right up against?!  They also mentioned that rust is building up behind the shoe(I assume this to mean in the "corner" of the drum?) I just had the brakes supposedly adjusted at a reputable shop, and no mention was made of this problems with the brakes. 

The minor items include a non-working windshield washer pump, inoperable low air buzzer(it worked yesterday when I started it, but not today for them), speedometer that doesn't work, license plate light inop, non-working backup lights.  Things I knew about were 3 dead bulbs in front clearence lights, and broken lens in the backup lights.

The steering I see is the biggest problem, and something I don't want to trust taking on a long trip until it is fixed.  My goal of leaving (in the bus) on 8 August is now shot!
I won't have time to get the "house" systems finished let alone the now needed mechanical repairs.


I know I can get the tie rod end from Luke, but any ideas on the steering?  I assume I am going to have to get the steering gear rebuilt.  I don't think my repair manual has an exploded diagram of the steering gear itself, and I don't know what brand it is.

Any and all thoughts are greatly appreciated.
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Steve Toomey
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2011, 09:19:18 AM »

On the bright side, you found out about a potentially serious steering problem without having an on-the-road emergency!
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bevans6
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2011, 09:28:10 AM »

What is the bad joint at the steering gear?  I don't understand that part of it.  new brake shoes are easy enough, and I would recommend trying to replace the complete tie rod rather than just the ends.  Mine is only 8 years old, and the joints are rusted in so tight I cannot move them.  A new tie-rod is cheap if you can find one the right length.

Other than that, sounds like a couple of decent weekends.  Adjusting brakes isn't like taking the drums off an inspecting them, different jobs...

now that you know, you'll be a lot happier after things are fixed up right!

Brian
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pabusnut
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2011, 09:39:18 AM »

 Undecided  I really don't know which steering "joint" they were talking about until I see them face to face tomorrow morning.  I will take the manual along and have them point it out.  I agree with replacing the whole tie rod, if it can be found.  On my cars that is normally the cheaper option, but not sure on the bus.  After it is out, it is a lot easier to take apart on the garage floor.

The problem is always time--not enough of it when the weather is good for working outdoors! 

Steve
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Steve Toomey
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« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2011, 10:31:00 AM »

Funny how some states are stricter then others.  I live in California and have never had to go through a safety inspection for my registration.  I get under the bus twice a year to inspect everything myself, though.  Except for the tie rod and steer gear problem, the brakes are relatively easy to do and of course replacing lights is easy.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2011, 11:30:21 AM »

"The minor items include a non-working windshield washer pump, inoperable low air buzzer(it worked yesterday when I started it, but not today for them), speedometer that doesn't work, license plate light inop, non-working backup lights.  Things I knew about were 3 dead bulbs in front clearence lights, and broken lens in the backup lights."

Now let me see? 

You kinda knew these things were NOT working (beforehand) but you took it in for an inspection anyway?

Man-Man.

BCO
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pabusnut
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« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 12:34:59 PM »

24 vDC bulbs aren't exactly a stock item at AutoZone!  NAPA carries them, but require 1+ week (and a significant amount of tracking)to get them in at $3.00+ each. I thought I would have them by the time of the scheduled inspection, but didn't happen. I swapped the good bulbs to the clearance lights that require significant work to remove--from the ones over the destination sign that just push in from inside the coach.  Still waiting on the bulbs from NAPA.  Kid+ bicycle+ old brittle plastic to blame a few days ago for the back-up lens.    Normally on small items--just pay them to fix and be done, which is what I planned to do.  Truck shops normally have some 24 VDC bulbs in stock.




 
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Steve Toomey
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« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2011, 01:46:32 PM »

My first question:  does the inspection shop also do the repair work.  If so, that puts a different slant of things.  You would have to wonder if they are fishing for business.  Your description, if it properly transcribes what they told you sounds a bit out of whack to me.  Description terminology does not match up with what I would expect.

Obviously, you paying for the inspection and you should make sure that they ***SHOW*** you the steering and brake problems.

Stepping back a minute, you have absolutely done the right thing to have a "safety inspection" done.  Every owner should do a "DOT" type inspection once a year, or have a "non-official" inspection done.  It is not a huge job.

Concerning the brakes, you need to see what they are talking about.  If there is any question about the brakes, have them done by someone who knows what they are doing.  The cost is not huge.  When you go that far, you are not all that far from pulling the bearings and inspecting them as well - at least you have the bus off the ground and the big tires off the drums.

The steering can be a coin toss.  If the bus steers well, and the play in the steering wheel is close to specification, then you might postpone the work.  That is ****IF**** the tie rod (and whatever the other factor is - can't tell from the description) are not at a critical stage.  All tie rod ends develop a bit of play over the years.  You just need to take a look at it yourself and see if it seems to clunk when they move the steering wheel.  Kind of a judgment call.

In the scheme of things that are described here at times, your problems do not sound all that bad.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2011, 02:01:03 PM »

24 vDC bulbs aren't exactly a stock item at AutoZone!  NAPA carries them, but require 1+ week (and a significant amount of tracking)to get them in at $3.00+ each. I thought I would have them by the time of the scheduled inspection, but didn't happen. I swapped the good bulbs to the clearance lights that require significant work to remove--from the ones over the destination sign that just push in from inside the coach.  Still waiting on the bulbs from NAPA.  Kid+ bicycle+ old brittle plastic to blame a few days ago for the back-up lens.    Normally on small items--just pay them to fix and be done, which is what I planned to do.  Truck shops normally have some 24 VDC bulbs in stock.

A lot of what you described should have been fixed beforehand as you stated it was "The state safety inspection on my 1973 4905" any time the govt. gets involved it is going to lead to problems (state or federal) best offense is a good defense.  

Fix what needs fixing first.

I have to agree with most everyone else, most of what you said or have described, is pretty minor, you can still get it up and running (safely) by the August deadline.

Go for it.

BCO
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« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2011, 02:12:43 PM »

One shop passed it and the state shop failed it?  Something does not pass the sniff test Huh  With a good attitude I would go back to the first shop and ask some questions.
                   JIm
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2011, 02:25:51 PM »

After I made my last post, I did a bit more research.

For the brake shoes, inspection is fairly easy and judgment on replacement should be pretty straight forward.

What bothered me was the tie rod end inspection.  I did a bit of looking at DOT inspection documents and the ones I found simply say to check for wear.  From a ton of experience working on front ends over the years, I have a pretty good "gut feel" for what is acceptable.  However, I did a bit of digging and found this Dana Spicer document:

http://www2.dana.com/pdf/AXWP-0403.pdf

At least that document gives some way to measure how much is acceptable.  I don't think you need a dial indicator to detect something in excess of 1/16 of an inch lateral movement. 

I put my hand on the tie rod so that it contacts both the tie rod and tie rod end and then have someone crank the steering back and forth.  I think you will be able to tell if it is bad given the Dana guidelines.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2011, 02:36:03 PM »

Most DOT station inspectors use a hand held laser to measure play one told me they cost around 20 bucks ea and make thousands in return   lol 

good luck
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« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 03:36:20 PM »

Since the subject of safety inspection has come up, here is the official FMCSA inspection procedure:

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/Fmcsrruletext.aspx?contentid=3702

Just so we are all on the same page, since we are classified as RVs, we are not required to have the Annual DOT inspection.  That said, we should all make sure that our vehicles comply with those safety standards.  For the most part, we can do the inspection ourselves, or pay to have a certified DOT inspector do the inspection (be very clear that you do not want an "official" inspection that would be reported to the DOT.  You simply want to make sure your bus is safe.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2011, 04:27:05 PM »

Please take this as constructive criticism. We are driving large heavy vehicles and whether they are RVs or for commercial use we as drivers need to aspire to a higher standard than the average automobile driver.

I am certain all of the issues did not happen at once so it suggests to me some serious safety concerns were present for a while. Maybe a light bulb out can be excused. We all have had that. And I am sure we could say all of a sudden the washer fluid would not pump. Two items that should be corrected, but hardly show stoppers. But a low pressure buzzer, bad tie rod ends, brake defects, and a bad speedo when looked at indicate a pattern of disregard for safety. I am sure a lot of the defects can be rationalized but when it is so easy to fix things as they break and not allow them to accumulate I would be concerned about what stuff was not found in the inspection.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but the standard I use is if I would allow my grandchild to ride in that vehicle, and as it stands right now I would not.
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Jon Wehrenberg
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« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 04:36:41 PM »

I don't know where he lives but some states require a safety inspection and some are tough,the State of Texas failed my 2003 pickup for window tint of all things and the county where it is located failed me on emissions because it had a K&N airfilter all was legal in AZ with no inspections when I bought it lol I had a hard time finding a factory air cleaner.Texas requires a safety inspection on all vehicles they check your tire tread wear there

good luck
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« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 05:16:56 PM »

His profile indicates York, Penn as his home base.  Texas is pretty strict, but with the population of the state such as it is, it might be a good deal.  You should see some of the junk that is routinely driven on a daily basis in Oklahoma (Oklahoma eliminated vech. inspections as unnecessary and no longer needed).

BCO
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« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 05:38:26 PM »

Minnesota hasn't had safety inspections in many years if ever.  With the number of cars driving around with burned out lights on the rear it would be nice if they had at least a minimal inspection.  I rarely see any grossly unsafe vehicles on the road though.

It isn't a DOT inspection, but I have C&J bus repair check out everything underneath once a year plus the brakes and other essentials.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 06:05:38 PM »

I don't mind paying the 14 bucks in Texas for a inspection they tie other things to that also like no valid insurance, no sticker,no safety sticker, no license plate renewal,no drivers license nothing except maybe a little jail house visit lol 

good luck
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« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 06:37:28 PM »

       Pa. has a different inspection system!!!!! $$$$$$ are looked for by some!! Even a new car can fail!  Some are honset.
       Inspection stations vary by what vehicles they can inspect.
       
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« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 06:41:18 PM »

"The minor items include a non-working windshield washer pump".  Since when is the windshield washer part of a DOT or State inspection?
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 06:50:07 PM »

The state of Virginia allows a used vehicle dealer to do their own safety inspections.  Total conflict of interest.  My bus would never have passed an honest safety inspection the way it was off the lot.

I don't know how any service place could truly do a full state of Virginia safety inspection on a heavy vehicle based on the $50 they could charge back in 2006.  $50 would only cover 1/2 hour labor at most places.  A by the book inspection would take over an hour by my estimate.  There is a requirement to remove at least two wheels and the brake drums too.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 07:00:41 PM »

Depends on the state Jack in OK I remember it had to have a washer that worked don't the feds require that as part of OEM safety equipment 


good luck
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« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 07:33:27 PM »

Looks like in PA it is: http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/inspections/safety_motorist_faq.shtml
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pabusnut
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« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 08:25:31 PM »

Guys,

Thanks for all the comments and constructive criticism.  I picked up the bus tonight but didn't get to talk in person to the guy who inspected it.  I am taking off work tomorrow to do get the in-person rundown on the inspection.  I can also find/order/get any parts I need for the stuff it needs.

In PA, private shops do the Safety Inspection, which is not a DOT inspection where penalties are involved, but a structured pass/fail criteria by size and type of vehicle.  Yes, some of the shops are trolling for work and push the envelope, so when you get a good and fair one, you keep going there.  I changed shops for inspection, because the one I went to previously is now closed.   I truly want a good inspection per the established criteria.  The only real difference between a motorhome inspection an a bus inspection is the frequency.  Motorhome 1X and bus 2X per year. 

A reputable bus place (about 45 min from home)adjusted my brakes, and replaced some air bags and a leveling valve, and it wasn't until I got it home that I realized that the inspection would run out in another 15 days. Cry  For the inspection, I didn't want to run too far from home and risk a fine for being out of inspection(costs twice + what an inspection costs). 

My major concern is time.  I can get everything fixed before the planned trip, BUT then I won't have the other things finished , such as running water, or A/C, or 120VAC power.


I am taking a deep breath, and one step back to plan what I am going to do---but will know more in the morning.

My wife calls me MR SAFETY, and that is the way I like it.  There is risk in doing anything, so I prefer to make my risk assessment regarding my family’s safety (and everyone else’s on the road) when I have the correct information. 

Thanks again!

Steve Toomey
PAbusnut








 
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Steve Toomey
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« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2011, 03:30:36 AM »

I had the same problem with my low air buzzer also.  Just opennned it up and found it needed a good cleaning from non use.  mike
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« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2011, 07:58:39 PM »

I stand corrected;

Subpart G - Miscellaneous parts and accessories

§ 393.78Windshield wiping and washing systems.
 (a) Vehicles manufactured on or after December 25, 1968. Each bus, truck, and truck-tractor manufactured on or after December 25, 1968, must have a windshield wiping system that meets the requirements of FMVSS No. 104 (S4.1) in effect on the date of manufacture. Each of these vehicles must have a windshield washing system that meets the requirements of FMVSS No. 104 (S4.2.2) in effect on the date of manufacture.
(b) Vehicles manufactured between June 30, 1953, and December 24, 1968. Each truck, truck-tractor, and bus manufactured between June 30, 1953, and December 24, 1968, shall be equipped with a power-driven windshield wiping system with at least two wiper blades, one on each side of the centerline of the windshield. Motor vehicles which depend upon vacuum to operate the windshield wipers, shall have the wiper system constructed and maintained such that the performance of the wipers will not be adversely affected by a change in the intake manifold pressure.

Sorry folks.
Jack
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Jack Hart, CDS
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pabusnut
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« Reply #26 on: July 20, 2011, 07:20:19 AM »

Well,

It looks like the bus will be staying in the driveway while we go to UTAH!

I decided that I probably could get the safety items fixed, but I wouldn't have the time to finish all the "house" items that are unfinished.  None of it is difficult, but since the "Flux capacitor" is on the fritz I won't be able to make more time either!

We will definitely be driving, but it is a toss up between hotels and pulling a tent camper!

Thanks again for all the help!

Steve Toomey
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2011, 06:06:34 PM »

Quick update. 

New backup lights are installed.  Truck Lite Units that look very close to the originals were available at Ryder Fleet products.  They have a rubber base and still use the "old school" bulbs.  So many of the new 12 VDC ones I looked at use the newer "blade" type bulbs, which aren't available in 24 VDC.  Several problems were encountered.  The old ones literally disintegrated when I took them off.  The wires that were "hooked up" to the backup light switch were not hooked to anything.  Fortunately the original wires were still in the bundle and could be spliced back in to the switch.  The last problem was that the circuit breaker (5A) was shot.  The lowest NAPA carries is 8A so thats what I orderd.  When I got home I realized I could have just put an in-line fuse in there for as little as it is used --Oh well.

New license plate lights are a custom installed.  Got these from Ryder too.  They also use the old school mini 12 vdc bulbs(waiting on the 10 I had to order).  The original lights here also disintegrated upon removal.  I installed 2 lights over the one license plate--just to make sure.

The low air light and buzzer are still sort of a problem.  I am not getting a good ground.  I got the light to work by using a jumper wire to ground.  The wiring diagram shows a ground right after the air pressure switch(NC).  The buzzer must be toast.  Since I didn’t hear any buzzers I pulled the cover for the one for low oil pressure is literally toasted.   I will order two of them on Monday from Luke.  What bothers me about this ground is that the diagram doesn’t tell you where that wire physically goes to ground at.  I will have to study the drawing further.  I can run a temporary ground right to the main ground (nest to the batteries) for now.
I have decided to let the inspection shop pull the brakes and repair them, since I don’t have the tools.  I am waiting to order any brake parts, until they have it apart.  I am also going to let them replace the “tie rod” and adjust the steering.  Luke B says it can be done.
I am continuing to work on the house stuff, even though I am not taking it to UTAH this trip.  We will go somewhere for a long weekend locally when I get that done.

Steve Toomey
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2011, 06:21:35 PM »

Quick update. 

We will go somewhere for a long weekend locally when I get that done.

Steve Toomey
pabusnut


Nice progress.  Take it to Chattanooga when you get it done.

BCO
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