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Author Topic: adding a charge-air cooler  (Read 3970 times)
Ed Brenner
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« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 07:06:31 PM »

If you added a water to air Intercooler as shown in the detroit picture, would it work as well as a air to air?

Wouldn't have to add a lot of piping or extra fan as long as your existing radiator could handle it. 

Anyone have or seen this application? Good topic as I am in the planning stages of a 6v92Ta for the old Eagle.

Build it big as long as I can get 100k out of it!!!
Thanks ED


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Ed Brenner
77 Eagle 05  Murrells inlet, SC
 " While We're At It " A Busnut's most costly Phrase !!
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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 10:43:56 PM »

If you added a water to air Intercooler as shown in the detroit picture, would it work as well as a air to air?

Wouldn't have to add a lot of piping or extra fan as long as your existing radiator could handle it. 

Anyone have or seen this application? Good topic as I am in the planning stages of a 6v92Ta for the old Eagle.

Build it big as long as I can get 100k out of it!!!
Thanks ED



 

Ed,

My man.   Yes....many times over.  The air to water exchanger can be made much smaller and it will drop the temp as much as you want to design.  This is why a 8V71 can put out 700HP in a boat.  They use the ocean as a heat sync.  No HP used for a monster fan.....just pump water thru the IC for the chill.  Now in tanks, I am told by Don. the radiator is 4 feet tall and stretches across the entire rear of the tank and has blowers that will blow your mind.  BUT, they can get and maintain 700HP and Don told me long ago that 1,000 was doable from a 8V71 if I could dump the intake air temp and get rid of the engine heat.  Simple, huh?  Just a 3 inch water line and a water pump instead of all that pesky radiator and fan and shroud and......  The 1000 item would reliably run for a shorter period than a 250 HP tuned engine.  Much shorter.

Most of what i am sharing is what  have picked up listening to professionals and reading and cross pollinating from automotive topics I have worked with for many years.  Be it me or anybody here I think it is incumbent on you to verify with professional sources for your sake and share your finding with us for ours.

John
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JohnEd
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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 11:00:51 PM »

I think my project will be an iterative process, gradual upgrades.  I'm sure that my first install will be simple - the turbo I have, which isn't the ideal one, and a straight shot into the manifold on top of the blower.  Steps in future would be the right turbo and the intercooler, since I do believe that the gains are there to be had.  My engine does not have an aftercooler or a bypass blower, so there is only so much I can get to.

But I have to say thanks for the support from the forum and the members on this.  Clifford's sometimes cryptic comments take a little thinking about, but what help!  Don Fairchild in particular has helped me understand the point of what I am trying to do. 

Last weekend I finished fabricating the manifold for the top of the blower - I modified a cast DD manifold so that it suited the turbo being hung just off and below the drivers side valve cover instead of directly behind the engine where my air compressor lives.  Welding that dirty cast aluminium was not my finest hour, but it's done.  I have the exhaust manifold about half done, tomorrow's job is mitering in the cross pipe from the passenger side into the pipe on the drivers side towards the turbo flange.  I am adding in several vee band clamps so that the whole thing can actually come off the engine once it's all done and finish-welded...  My pressure side is going to be all beaded tubing, you bet!  I'll post pictures in a week or so, my camera got left in Nova Scotia last time I visited down there.

Hot here, around 115 today heat index...  I last about 6 minutes in the shop before my eyes are filled and stinging!

Brian

Brian,

My first upgrade would be the "Aftercooler" that sits under the blower/compressor.  That is the item that Clifford says dumps 100 degrees form the intake charge air.  DD gets by without a IC and dumps the superheated turbo compressed air into the blower.  Even with this power robbing heat load the A seems to get everything to a safe temp.  If you add a turbo to a block that isn't equipped with "anything" to lower charge air temp, I think you might be tempting fate and probably missing HP at the least.  Just food for thought my friend.

My very best wish for your success and amusement throughout this adventure,


John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
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luvrbus
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« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2011, 05:45:33 AM »

Question for Jim and Brian why the beaded pipe with silicone turbo hoses ? never saw that before on factory installs 

good luck
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babell2
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Brice


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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2011, 05:56:58 AM »

Question for Jim and Brian why the beaded pipe with silicone turbo hoses ? never saw that before on factory installs 

good luck

Lvrbus
   I haven't had any experience with DD turbo setups but in other turbos that run higher manifold pressures the Beaded pipe helps keep the hose from blowing off the pipe. Put your foot down hard feel the boost then everything goes away.  You have blown a hose off.

Brice
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luvrbus
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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2011, 06:10:48 AM »

 Brice,thanks I was asking because the source (turbo) doesn't have a bead and reading the paper work on the silicone turbo hoses I have here it states not for use on beaded pipe I can see where rubber would be a problem but I never had a hose or pipe blow off with silicone hoses

good luck 
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bevans6
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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 06:19:13 AM »

John, adding an aftercooler isn't a bolt on accessory, it's a fundamental redesign of the engine intake system down to the block.  Ain't going to happen after this engine is in the bus.  If I was doing a high-bucks build of an ultimate engine instead of just trying to get some reliable rolling stock under  me, then sure...

Clifford, the stock pressure side turbo tubing and hoses on my engine are all beaded including the turbo, it's not silicone hose though.  I have a love/hate for silicone hose, I find it cold leaks with coolant.  About the only good thing about it (aside from temperature resistance, longevity and all that technical stuff) is that it's a pretty blue colour.  If I can buy high quality rubber hose in the appropriate size I use that every time.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2011, 06:25:17 AM »

Can you post a photo of the bead on the turbo I have never saw one and would like to see how they do that
After the 1st of the year we are going to build Van a 400-425 hp 8v92 high torque engine (8-9mpg) for his Eagle he is pretty good with a camera sure there will be lots of photo then some of the guys here can understand it not all that easy to just add things to a 2 stroke like a after cooler,already told him the gear driven 50D is history lol with me involved  

good luck
« Last Edit: July 23, 2011, 07:33:57 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2011, 08:03:19 AM »

Clifford, I can only speak to the turbos on Series 60 (I did not document, nor do I remember much about the 6V92 turbo).  Those turbos have what I call a saddle clamp that clamps around a flange on the turbo and the flange on the adapter.  That adapter has a bead on every one that I have seen.  In addition, all of the stock Series 60 tubing has a bead on it as well.  I have attached a photo of the tubing I made for my conversion. 

I used a standard bead roller that is used in automotive fabrication (rolling beads in flat panels).  It absolutely worked great.  I did have to make a simple flange to seat the tubing against to get the bead started.

Even with the beads, I blew the hose off at least twice.  You really have to stay on top of even the spring clamps until the silicon material stops "flowing".  Those blow offs occurred during the period when I was not monitoring the air temperature and I suspect that one blew off when the air temperature was over 200*.  The other one occurred on a flat road and should not have been caused by high air temperature.

I have never seen a rubber air to air hose.  Everyone I have seen is silicone.  And for good reason.  There is no kind of rubber compound that would withstand the high temperatures in the system.

On water to air coolers, the one shown in the picture is most likely for a boat application where the cool water would take the air down to a reasonable level (probably less than 120*. 

On the DD 2-stroke water inner-cooler, I always scratch my head.  When you need the cooling the most - lots of turbo boost, the water will be at it's highest.  Even if you use water right out of the radiator (cooler), it is probably at least 160* and the cooler is pretty small for the air flow.  I can't imagine that the air entering the engine is less than 180 degrees.  That is much higher than is considered acceptable - at least for 4-strokes.

Brian, I would be extremely concerned if you add a turbo and do not use either an air to air, or the DD water heat exchange.  You need one or the other, or you will be introducing very high air temperatures to the engine.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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bevans6
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« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2011, 08:57:16 AM »

Jim, I hear you on the  intercooler, hence this thread, but remember I'm not "adding" a turbo, I'm simply changing the location of the stock turbo.  The result is going to be pretty exactly the same as Detroit built it in the first place, it's a legit 8v-71T.

Clifford, the bead on the turbo outlet is simply a raised ring around the exit point of the pressure side, about 1/4" wide and 1/16" tall.  The hose slips over it and the band clamp goes behind it, towards the turbo side.  It isn't much.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
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« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2011, 09:00:50 AM »

The saddle clamps and flange I buy Jim I just have never saw a bead on a 2 stroke turbo or a saddle clamp always a spring loaded clamp and silicone hose on the cold side even when they change sizes as some do it is a molded silicone hose with 2 different sizes of ends not trying to start a argument here just want to make sure my eyes are not lying to me, cold side connection not the hot housing connection

good luck
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JohnEd
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« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2011, 09:42:58 AM »

Jim, I hear you on the  intercooler, hence this thread, but remember I'm not "adding" a turbo, I'm simply changing the location of the stock turbo.  The result is going to be pretty exactly the same as Detroit built it in the first place, it's a legit 8v-71T.

Clifford, the bead on the turbo outlet is simply a raised ring around the exit point of the pressure side, about 1/4" wide and 1/16" tall.  The hose slips over it and the band clamp goes behind it, towards the turbo side.  It isn't much.

Brian

We have a disconnect.....on my end...at least.  Someone with a "book" should be able to answer this:  I thought that the A(aftercooler) was an option on the "N" engine.  I read once that the N without a A option didn't have the machine work done to allow it to accept a After-cooler....missing casting components or perches or something.  Tearing down your 8V71N to install the spendy aftercooler you bought and finding out that you can't install one in your block would meet my definition of a bad day.  Concerns such as these drive some of my questions and pedestrian comments.

Secondly;  I thought that ALL "T" designated engines came with a After-cooler featured block.  Obviously I don't have the books to research the authoritative answers.

Third:  You are right about my missing some of your points.  That comment about not having the correct turbo led me to believe that the engine was not originally turbo equipped.  If it is a fully equipped turbo engine then I can't see for a minute why you couldn't install a turbo with somewhat less capacity.  Getting the temp of the charge air lower than the original spec without a IC wouldn't require any mod to the engine in the least in regards to "accommodating" that lower temp.  Lower is better...withing reason.

Anybody have a set of DD manuals that I could have or buy cheap?  Even armed, as it were, with a complete DD library, Clifford has been corrected for missing a table or dropping a stitch or getting crossed up with the line.  Hey, if it can happen to "The Clifford"...well?  Just not saying that having a manual would make me bulletproof and a source that could not be challenged cause that would run right into my humility "fire wall".

John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
“We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.”
—Pla
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« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2011, 10:00:19 AM »

I thought you guys may get a laugh from this but I am into a 8v71T in 4905A this bus has flexible aluminum dryer duct from the turbo to the intake about 3 ft no after cooler or inter cooler and this bus has ran for 20 years without a hiccup lol just now separated a liner that I told him would happen 20 years ago so here I am with egg on my face repairing a engine that I thought would last maybe 6 months.Jim old Don Gourley has a 71 turbo in his Eagle without a aftercooler or inter cooler

good luck
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Ralph7
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« Reply #28 on: July 23, 2011, 11:44:52 AM »

        Clifford, yes they had that type turbo aftercooler,forgot about it.   
        The engine must have the correct water ports, N and T engines do not normally have them.
         8-71T engines highest safest, HP 350.-- 8-71TA --- 400 HP ------- Mine about 375 HP and with good radiators gets HOT on I-81 hills,,,, and I have not learned to slow down and down shift soon enough, it is a 740 auto with air only oil cooler.
         Clifford, the person here has an Eagle that they took a 8-71T military, had water ports so they added the aftercooler, moved the side turbo. He had a bad radiator so replaced it at the same time with a new radiator. The Eagle has a standard trans.  On the first tirp 
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Ralph7
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« Reply #29 on: July 23, 2011, 11:54:12 AM »

      Don't know Huh but will try to finish....
   On his first trip after install , some distance tween Pa. an Los Vages it ran warm, maybe he ran slower after that.  It was the fall of 2009 cause I ran to N.M.- Az.  also.
   So my Huh? on 8-92 cooling, is/will the temp. guage be telling the right foot to lighten???
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