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Author Topic: This is What a Ruined 8V71TA Looks Like...........  (Read 9480 times)
TedsBUSted
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« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2011, 05:17:12 PM »


I would also try to find a way to check your filter minder.  Even after I put a new filter in, I get some indication on my filter minder.

A simple crude test of basic function can be made by partially blocking the air intake while observing the meter.

Ted
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Bus polygamist. Always room for another, especially ‘04 or ‘06 are welcome. NE from Chicago, across the pond.
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« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2011, 05:25:38 PM »

If it were me, I would pull the air filter and check it (would assume you have done that).  Then I would pull the hose that connects to the turbo and inspect the interior surface to make sure that the dust is not somehow bypassing the filter.

I would also try to find a way to check your filter minder.  Even after I put a new filter in, I get some indication on my filter minder.

It so happens that my bus project for this evening is to reinstall the intake piping from the filter to the turbo.  I just went outside and checked the inside of the piping and no dust I can find.  There is dust on the exposed parts of the rubber boots past the clamps, but that is to be expected.

I'm reluctant to remove the air filter considering everything I've removed recently I've managed to break.  I'm afraid I might not get it reseated properly to avoid air leakage.  I had to replace the filter Minder back in 2006 I think because it cracked somehow.  How do I know if it is working or not?  I have carried a spare air filter for years now as I was worried the fine dust might plug it.

As Ted mentioned I guess i could climb up a ladder and block the intake momentarily and see if the Filter Minder does anything.  They can't be expensive to replace.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2011, 05:28:59 PM »

I;m not sure why I am encouraging this but here goes - pictures of the stock air filter in a 1980 MCI MC-5C with a 8V-71NA stock engine.  One of the cups is on the ground.  I can barely lift it with one hand, it's more drag it with two.  There is no way I could put it back in by myself.

Brian
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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
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« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2011, 06:08:13 PM »

JohnEd will appreciate the photos Brian he is probably to busy with Google and other sites looking for a 2 stroke Deutz engine trying to win a steak dinner from me lol gota love old John though.
Did you ever figure out what dusted you engine ?

good luck
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« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2011, 06:14:25 PM »

 Grin
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« Reply #65 on: August 09, 2011, 05:04:26 AM »

Clifford, the only thing I can figure is it was running the oil bath filters completely dry for who knows how long.  I didn't check them when I got the bus, I ran it for around 4,000 miles before that project rolled up on the list, and yeah, there was a certain sinking feeling...    Near as I can figure it ran without oil for a very long time, the PO may never have checked.  After I was in the airbox covers and knew it had dust in it, I checked all the hoses and they were good.  I won't buy another two stroke without pulling at least one airbox cover and sticking my finger in there to feel for grit.

Brian

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1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
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« Reply #66 on: August 09, 2011, 09:32:17 AM »

  After I was in the airbox covers and knew it had dust in it, I checked all the hoses and they were good.  I won't buy another two stroke without pulling at least one airbox cover and sticking my finger in there to feel for grit.

Brian

That is SUPERB advice and the first time i have heard it in all the years I have watched these adventures unfold.  Sure beats plunking you hard earned... and "rolling the dice".   

Thanks Brian,

John
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« Reply #67 on: August 11, 2011, 01:13:24 PM »

Politics and philosophy aside...

In my opinion, the greatest single improvement to extended engine life has been the dry element filter system. A system with a pre-cleaner, primary element, and  secondary element, has to be ten times more effective than oil bath.

I don't think any would argue that point.  The DE "can" be far superior to the OB at the beginning of the DE life cycle.  And another point, so far overlooked in this thread is that you cannot use a DE filter that is TOO LARGE  Being bigger it will just filter better longer.  The OB must be sized, on the other hand.

Besides the haphazard way an oil bath hopes to drop impurities out, most have a poorly sealed bowl and/or connections with a direct leak path for unfiltered air to enter the engine.

Sadly, you don't have a grasp on the way a OB filter actually works.  I think the correct FULL name is a Oil Bath "Velocity" Air Filter.  Read some data on "velocity: air filters and the OB will make more sense.  This new generation of carpet sweepers are advertised as "bag less".  With all the hype about swirling cones and such it is you basic velocity air filter and that Hepa filter is for the really fine particulate that is such a challenge to a velocity filter.  In your info quest take note of the velocity filters used on tractors and farm equipment that are up-stream of the OB.  They are merely a chamber that holds the really large chunks that cannot make the turn into the main charge air channel.  They are a pre-filter.....bagless, so to speak.  In bad conditions they are emptied by the hour or so.  Very effective and they are a straight piece of pipe that makes a turn....no filter, no bag, no oil and no screen.....works gangbusters.  Maybe not on "Lone Wolf" Cliffords harvester but, nonetheless.  Made its debut right after we switched over from STEAM cause the firebox actually liked that trash coming in so .... no filtering there.


 Incidentally, the bowl also makes an excellent water trap, with collected water  nicely displacing oil.

That is certainly true.  That is every bit the design flaw as the DE getting wet and becoming more restrictive.  Neither was expected/designed for application on a submersible.  The Dietz OB filter has what looks to be a "turbine wheel" at the very inlet and then there is a longish section of pipe between the "turbine" and the OB element.  I didn't suspect the purpose of this design feature till you mentioned rain water.  It would seem that Dietz made the air swirl around the inside of the pipe on its way to the filter.  That would fling the water droplets to the pipe interior and I'll just bet there is a small weep hole in there.  Otherwise, that water getting in there would raise the level of the oil in the bath. The Dietz is designed for "harsh environment" and low maint but I am sure they didn't intend the thing to operate out in the rain.....they are just particular and thorough....like most German manufactures.  Even if Clifford is convinced Dietz doesn't exist and wouldn't be bothered by an "imaginary" Dietz being dropped on'm.  Har... Wink

The intake plumbing of even the best maintained  oil-bath equipped engine is (was) usually coated with a  "paste" of dirt that has passed beyond the filter.

That paste is made up of extremely light, soft and small particulate.  It isn't all that abrasive and gets pushed around in the mechanical  parts of the cylinder.  Still, it isn't good in any way, just not all that great a problem.  It is minimized by the EDICT to not let a GM 2 stroke idle.  It is at idle that the filter performs the worst but that worst is just a caution....not a condemnation of a flaw.  In road conditions it take many hundreds of thousands of miles for that coating inside the filter to become even noticeable.  I speak from experience, albeit limited.

 Whereas the plumbing of a properly maintained dry system is usually hospital clean.

My intakes were clean with the OB.  As was/is my DE.  The OB has one union.....out let coupling to the intake flange.  The DE has that union plus the top of the filter union, plus, the bottom of the element mating to the filter housing.  Any other couplings are not part of the filter and housing.  From your perspective the DE# is more subject to failure due to air leaks.  I think the matter small, but still, you are wrong.

Then there's oil-bath's required frequent labor intensive servicing, -remember, many industrial applications required daily service- with each servicing exposing the engine to a direct dose of dirt.

Consider the cost to trap... say, a 50 pounds of dust.  weigh your clean and dirty DE  filters.  At $125 per each......what did it cost you to keep that much dirt out of your engine?  Now consider that no matter how often you check it the OB needs servicing rarely.  Mine made it 4 years after I wised up I was wasting my time with that 6 month crap and I was running in a high dust environment....not severe, though.  And, the OB actually stops MORE stuff if the crud you get out after a year is any indication.  I got maybe 1/8 cup of sludge so 4 years was about a half cup and that was from a 1800 CC VW Beetle and they don't breath hard or heavy.

With a dry system, all connections are gasket sealed, any collected moisture is automatically drained away, and when the service meter indicates that service is actually necessary, it's usually a quick, clean and simple task.

As I pointed out: the DE has many more unions and I don't have a single drain in any of the three filters I am currently using.  Ford, Lexus and Dodge

Incidentally, over 20K was a long time to make it breathing dirty air. Most hard-working engines would be finished with just a day or two of taking on dirty unfiltered air.

His point was that the "bath" was empty.  The extensive surface area course screen over the bath becomes saturated and goes on trapping particulate for a long time.  Oil doesn't evaporate quickly and a little goes a long way in being sticky.  Back in "the day" when i rode desert bikes a new fangled thingy happened to us dirt riders.  It was called the Green Weeney".  Instead of a big and heavy air box and air filter we installed a wiener shaped foam bag with an expanded metal frame inside.  We took the foam off of the frame and then wet the foam liberally with the "filter oil".  The only filtration on the bike we had was that crummy piece of foam and if you don't think we did a lot of reading and looking at testimonials from near and afar you have at least one more think coming.  Well, those things were beyond crazy good.  They would turn from medium green to desert tan in minutes.  By the end of the day they were thick with dust....1/4 inch thick.  Next day that layer of dust had fallen off and revealed a clean.....and oiled....Green Weeney.  As this had happened to some while we were riding and far from civilization and filter oil, we continued to ride.  Low and behold the thing turned tan again and quickly built up another coating.  Limit was three before the coating stuck and didn't fall off and the bike engine started loading up and running hot.  In the case of the Weeny, the oil bath was the high tac oil coating.  The velocity filter was the air bubbles that the dirty air had to swirl around to make it's way and NOTHING was ever found to be better at filtering dust in the desert.  We changed those $20 hi performance paper elements at least ever third day of pleasure riding and before every race.  The Weeners cost $30 and they saved everyone a ton of cash an nobody had "dirt" in the engine problems after that, as well.  Funny thing, the weeneys could not stop water worth a darn so if there were many deep water crossings we had to revert to the paper elements.  A fly in any ointment that you just have to find.

Ted

Ted,

I don't mean any of this to sound harsh or impatient.  It isn't so intended.  As any journey of discovery it should be enjoyable.  Especially if you are self correcting.  They are certainly that for me and I get a turn often. Wink

John
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« Reply #68 on: August 11, 2011, 01:41:04 PM »

well I am new to this whole MCI bus stuff and my MC9 still has the oil bath filter on it..

can someone put up some links of places to get the correct paper filter for my bus.. I want to remove the Oil bath system and would love any help as to where to get correct filter.. thanks
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« Reply #69 on: August 11, 2011, 01:54:30 PM »

Bruiser,  I remember hearing that there is a "drop in" replacement DE cartridge.  One thing I might add is that there are elements spec'd for the required air flow for your particular engine.  I would consider that spec a minimum.  While it may be acceptable you can still go larger.  The benifit is that the element will still last longer and will probably cost less in the long run.  Probably was the operative word.  Twice the air flow rating will net you 1/2 the replacements so if the filter isn't twice as expensive and you can actually install it you would be ahead.  Contact Luke at US coach for info on the conversion parts but don't buy till you hear from Clifford on what he might have for sale.

Good luck,



John
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« Reply #70 on: August 11, 2011, 02:06:28 PM »

Good grief - obviously a 8V71 since that is what he took out.

Ok so I will just chill and reflect on your Bi-Line: "I know you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant".  Seems appropriate in this case.  All the rest of what you said sounds so good I will assume you stepped outside your bi-line on that.

Don't forget: "There is no such thing as a dumb question".  That specifically does not apply to all "ANSWERS".  Just kidding......this is a flat medium and subject to miss interpretation.  And, "Good Grief" might mean many different things.  Right?



If you want to pay shipping and packing, I'll send you the oil bath filter from my MCI gratis...  it has four elements, weighs around 150 lbs and is a lump roughly 16" tall by 20" wide and 24" long... Wink

Brian,

What engine did the OB filter you have come off of?  Is it a single pass or are there parallel filters?  Is a pic too much trouble to feed my curiosity?

Thank you,


John

I would think that a 8V71 would have a smaller filter than a 8V71TA.  Dunno!  But, it should!
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 02:08:34 PM by JohnEd » Logged

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The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." Plato
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« Reply #71 on: August 11, 2011, 10:21:24 PM »

On my MCI 8 the PO removed the bottom basket from the OB filter, and there is a replacement drop in DE buttoned right up in there. Only problem is the whole housing has to come out to change the DE, not enough room in there to remove the bottom cover and pull the filter out with the housing in place.
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« Reply #72 on: August 11, 2011, 10:35:42 PM »

On my MCI 8 the PO removed the bottom basket from the OB filter, and there is a replacement drop in DE buttoned right up in there. Only problem is the whole housing has to come out to change the DE, not enough room in there to remove the bottom cover and pull the filter out with the housing in place.

I think they want the make and model number.

Please,


John
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"An uneducated vote is a treasonous act more damaging than any treachery of the battlefield.
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« Reply #73 on: August 11, 2011, 10:49:04 PM »

  All things being equal, the larger filter will always offer greater flow. A higher flow will put more air into the engine, more air gives more power and burns less fuel. So put in the biggest you can live with.
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« Reply #74 on: August 11, 2011, 10:52:58 PM »

There is no picture....the motor is older than the camera...well almost.




« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 10:54:42 PM by eagle19952 » Logged

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1978 Model 05 Eagle w/Torsilastic Suspension,8V71 NA, DDAllison on 24.5's 12kw Kubota.
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