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Author Topic: $300 worth of ATF down the ATF down the drain!  (Read 2617 times)
belfert
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« on: August 15, 2011, 05:56:23 PM »

My brand new hose for my transmission is leaking through the crimp!  $300 worth of flipping ATF down the drain!  Cry 

I'm mad I could spit nails right now.  No, I don't have any clean way to capture the seven gallons of ATF I'm going to lose.  The 5 gallon bucket  from the new ATF won't fit under the transmission and it isn't big enough anyhow.

I guess I better go clean up my mess outside and head over to the Freightliner dealer for another 7 gallons of ATF.

I thought the black cloud over my head had departed, but I guess not.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2011, 06:17:19 PM »

Aww, shucks B. Sorry to hear that. I would think a little harder on how to save the ATF. Maybe just crack the line a little, then let it run out into a smaller container. Rig up a little HF drill powered pump, and pump it into a bigger container.

I do that with used engine oil.

FWIW

John
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MCI 1995 DL3. DD S60 with a Allison B500.
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« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2011, 06:43:16 PM »

A  NEW kerosene hand pump can by used to pump it from a drain pain.  Just think about it for a minute,,, theres always a way Grin



O they also make a pump that goes down your didpstick tube to suck out oil.....

Eric
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belfert
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« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2011, 06:53:51 PM »

I thought about it for a few more minutes and I ended up digging a hole under the transmission and getting the clean 5 gallon bucket under there to collect the fluid.  Only about 4 gallons came out so the rest must be in the cooler and lines.  The fluid comes out under such pressure it is nearly impossible to stop or switch containers.

The top of the bucket was not pristine clean and some of the dirt may have been swept into the bucket.  Can I run it through a paint filter to get an possible dirt out, or should I just bite the bullet and pay another $179 ($193 with tax) for a fresh 5 gallon bucket of ATF?

The good news is the rest of the engine ran fine and no oil or coolant leaks.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2011, 07:00:33 PM »

I have went as far as to use a 12 volt fuel pump with a inline fuel filter to "clean" fluid so that I can reuse it.

Eric
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Scott Bennett
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« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2011, 07:10:38 PM »

Stink...I feel for you...if I were there, I'd volunteer to switch buckets for you as they filled  Undecided
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« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2011, 08:01:05 PM »

Brian,
Buddy I feel for you I really do!
But oh how I wish you'd took a minute while you were "cooling down" to call and ask me how I'd do it.
I'd told ya to get a plastic barrel and cut it off about a foot to 15" high and it will hold a full 10 gallons!

Another way is to run to Autozone, O'Riellys, Advance (or what ever your local discount parts place is or Walmart and buy 2-3 of the yellow oil drain pans with the handle on one side and pour spout on the other. They hold 3.5-4 gallons. I usually start one filling and as it nears 3/4 full I use the next one to push the full one out as I push the empty one under. 

Sorry too late now. But yes I'd run it thru a filter/strainer an reuse it
Sad  BK  Sad
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2011, 08:18:29 PM »

I went to the Freightliner dealer and spent another $80 on two more gallons of ATF.  I'm going to run the stuff I pulled out this evening through a paint strainer just in case it got any dirt in it.  I'll probably lose at least a few quarts from the hose and the cooler.

Every day it seems I run onto another stupid issue that pushes my project completion back a few days.  This latest fiasco will add two or three more days.  I doubt I can get the hose out and to the hydraulic shop for replacement before they close at 5 pm tomorrow.  I tried to get the hose out this evening, but it was really starting to get dark and the mosquitoes were out in force.  It is also supposed to rain tomorrow which won't help.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2011, 03:44:25 AM »

Why not try and get the shop that did the fittings on the hose to pay for their mistake? If it were me, you can bet they wouldnt of heard the last from me about losing the atf from their dumbness!
Now if it were your fault, suck it up and filter it and replace what is needed at your expense!
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Ace Rossi
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« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2011, 04:49:14 AM »

  $40 Gal for ATF? Is that something special thats required for your Trans?

  Didnt your Bus came with Aeroquip hose ends? 
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« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2011, 05:40:23 AM »

  $40 Gal for ATF? Is that something special thats required for your Trans?

  Didnt your Bus came with Aeroquip hose ends? 

That's what I was thinking! If I didn't have Aeroquip hose ends I would buy some. I am 40 miles from civilization so I keep hose & ends at the shop.

TOM
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2011, 06:36:12 AM »

Yes guys Transynd synthetic tranny fluid runs about $40  a gallon. And it is what Allison recommends is run a B500 series transmission.

As for the Areoquip hose  ends I doubt Brians bus came with them.

And I seriously doubt Brian wants to store a bunch of extra fittings & such.
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2011, 06:40:58 AM »

I'm just curious - how much pressure is this line that leaked under?  I have assembled hundreds of hose ends of different sorts and I have never had an end leak.  In particular a crimped on end - I don't do them myself, I get the hose shop to crimp the ends.  I just kind of want to understand how this failure happened so I can watch out for it.  The only thing I can think of is somehow the end that was put on was not designed for use with the hose type.

Brian
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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2011, 07:28:21 AM »

I got a bulletin from Allison a couple years ago Dexron is no longer approved for use in the World transmissions neither is C-4
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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2011, 08:34:55 AM »

I got a bulletin from Allison a couple years ago Dexron is no longer approved for use in the World transmissions neither is C-4

Yup you got it Clifford, that is why we run the high dollar Transynd. (trying to squeeze every last mile out of these short life trannys!)
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2011, 08:50:23 AM »

The bad crimp on the hose is as much my fault as the hydraulic shop.  The hose was made a month ago and it turned out to be too long.  I had them cut the hose off last Friday and they didn't crimp the connector so I could check the fit.  At 4 PM Friday they told they would be open 8 am to 12 noon Saturday to crimp the connector.  I went over there at 9 AM Saturday and they were closed!  I ended up finding another hydraulic shop to crimp the end on.  It is that end that leaks.

I decided to pull the hose out this morning and get it over to the shop right away.  I found that the other end is also leaking, but just a tiny bit.  I don't think everything seated quite right on that end.  I didn't get anything done with the hose yet as the shop wants to see the fitting from the cooler.  I am hoping I don't have to pull out the intercooler and the transmission cooler as that is a full day job to remove both.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 08:55:35 AM by belfert » Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2011, 09:03:35 AM »

I don't know what would have changed that suddenly we can't run Dexron in older B500 tranmissions.  If it was okay in 1995 why not now?  I can understand why you must run Transynd in the new B500s.

The main reason I run Transynd is the extended drain interval.  I'm fairly certain the previous owner would have been using Dexron.  The first time you change to Transynd you are supposed to change after two years instead of four.  I waited four years anyhow.  The stuff I actually am using is Mobil Delvac Synthetic ATF.  It meets the same specs as Transynd and is Allison approved, but it is four or five bucks a gallon less than Transynd.

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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2011, 09:11:18 AM »

I'm just curious - how much pressure is this line that leaked under?  I have assembled hundreds of hose ends of different sorts and I have never had an end leak.  In particular a crimped on end - I don't do them myself, I get the hose shop to crimp the ends.  I just kind of want to understand how this failure happened so I can watch out for it.  The only thing I can think of is somehow the end that was put on was not designed for use with the hose type.

Brian

And you are the kind of guy that would share those findings with the rest of us.  Even if the first shop didn't actually crimp the badly leaking fitting, they did provide the specific hose and hardware.  Given that both ends are leaking and two different crimpers were used it seems a materials incompatibility or fitting hardware "flaw" should be eliminated.  Whatever they touched would now be suspect to me.  Kudos to their wanting to inspect the rest of the fittings and the shop crimps.  That is a confidence builder.  I think the leaking second fitting proves that they have a problem.  I would get those other fittings out but I weep for your lost labor and trashed schedule.

The shop isn't likely to have the equip to properly diagnose the cause of the failure.  I would want to see the shop express shipping the assembled fitting to the manufacturer of the hardware for "failure analysis" and a "Report".  Might get that done before you launch into ripping out the cooler and such....a days labor hurts.

Get on the web and Google the manufacturer of the fitting hardware and hose as well.  Might find a recall or other reports of problems.

Good luck and please let us all know.

John
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2011, 09:18:25 AM »

I got a bulletin from Allison a couple years ago Dexron is no longer approved for use in the World transmissions neither is C-4

Yup you got it Clifford, that is why we run the high dollar Transynd. (trying to squeeze every last mile out of these short life trannys!)
Grin  BK  Grin

Just how short a life span do these things have?  In looking for a used bus would the 4 speed be worth more in terms of reliability and peace of mind?  I have heard more time than I can count "the Allison 740 is indestructible".

How do they live in service for your shop BK?

Thanks,

John
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2011, 10:05:11 AM »

JohnEd,
In all the years I've been around buses I have only had to replace one 740 due to failure and that was due to an incompetent driver who damaged the pan, had someone "patch" it for him, and forgot to refill the fluid to the proper level before heading off on a 200 mile trip.

He made it 150 mile before it locked up in drive!

We could start the bus and run it in neutral, but if we put it in gear it'd kill the engine.
I had a friend come haul it in to our shop. (I was on the road too with a different team, and actually came across "dumb driver" on the side of the road trying to pour 5 gallons of Co-op trans fluid in after it locked up!)

When the tow truck driver called me and asked "hey does this thing run at all?"
I told him "Sure, but it will die as soon as you put it in gear!"

He said "well I was hoping I could build air pressure, release the brakes, & let it roll backwards down the hill and back it onto the side road behind it where I'd be able to hook up and head back to the interstate w/o having to turn around after hooking up".

I told him go for it, it's already toasted!

Much to his and our surprise once he was barely rolling backwards he was able to stick it in reverse and it actually "broke loose and" pulled itself back around the corner to where he needed it to! (good thing too as he couldn't get the needed momentum just coasting)

Now that said I have replaced several multi-mega-mile 740's as preventive measures before they failed, but as said the dang things are damn near indestructable!

Now on the other hand in our coaches that have the B500 the 3 older models (2 '95's & '97) we have all had transmissions put in them not long before we bought them @ around 300,000 miles.

Now jump to the (2) 2005 models we have. One of them lost the trans @ 275,000 and the other is starting to act up @ 330,000.

Which is about par for what everyone has told us. (Even Sammy our truly beloved departed B500 guru had told me to expect to replace the B500's around 300,000!)

So there ya have it.
Grin  BK  Grin
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belfert
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« Reply #20 on: August 16, 2011, 10:28:05 AM »


And you are the kind of guy that would share those findings with the rest of us.  Even if the first shop didn't actually crimp the badly leaking fitting, they did provide the specific hose and hardware.  Given that both ends are leaking and two different crimpers were used it seems a materials incompatibility or fitting hardware "flaw" should be eliminated.  Whatever they touched would now be suspect to me.  Kudos to their wanting to inspect the rest of the fittings and the shop crimps.  That is a confidence builder.  I think the leaking second fitting proves that they have a problem.  I would get those other fittings out but I weep for your lost labor and trashed schedule.

The second leak is not a crimping failure like the first.  I think the second leak is due to the hose not seating down properly on the fitting.  I had one heck of a time even getting the connector started to screw it on.  I would like to find a 45 that has a JIC-16 male on one end and a JIC-16 male on the other end to make it easier to screw the hose on straight.

Once I get a new end on the hose I will have them test again to see if the other end leaks in their shop.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2011, 10:30:50 AM by belfert » Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #21 on: August 17, 2011, 10:36:07 AM »

Thank you for the info.

Good luck with this.


John
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« Reply #22 on: August 17, 2011, 08:12:29 PM »

I'm so sick of dealing with this hose crap that I didn't go right back out and put the hose in right away.  I really didn't feel like crawling back underneath again.  I delayed too long this evening and didn't quite get far enough to try starting the engine to check for leaks.  The mosquitoes got to me and I had to stop before I got all the ATF back in the transmission.

It took forever to run the reclaimed ATF through the paint strainer.  I can't really tell if the strainer is collecting any dirt or not.  ATF seems pretty thin compared to paint.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2011, 04:53:39 PM »

It works, it finally works!  I refilled with water (not coolant yet) and ATF and and started the engine and everything seems to be working!  I found a coolant leak, but tightening the hose clamp fixed that.  The hydraulic hose isn't leaking on either end as far as I can tell.

Okay, I do have a very minor ATF leak, but it is coming from the fitting the screws into the cooler.  I need to go buy another 1-1/2" wrench or find a pipe to put over the wrench to tighten that fitting.  (I had to cut my 1-1/2" wrench in half so it would fit elsewhere.)
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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