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Author Topic: What to do about major oil leak - Series 60  (Read 4970 times)
Sammy
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« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2006, 05:24:07 PM »

Brian, the Series 60's in the Prevost H3-45's that I work with have a 2 speed electric fan clutch. DDEC controls the fan clutch based on the coolant temp it "sees". At 195 degrees DDEC puts the fan clutch into a partial lock up.  At 205 degrees DDEC puts the fan clutch into a direct lockup. Your temps don't seem way out of line.
Check the oil feed line to your turbo, it goes from the oil cooler housing to the top of the turbo.
One place to check for the leak you mentioned.  Cool

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Hartley
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« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2006, 05:36:44 PM »

Try replacing the Oil filters, be sure to clean the surfaces carefully and not over tighten.

From the sound of what you were saying about the leak, It really started "after" the oil change or within a short
time period. Maybe you have a bad filter...

This would also explain a lower oil pressure reading. And for my next trick... Do you have 1 or 2 oil filters?

If you have 2 then one is probably a hight flow and the other is a low flow with bypass.

If they put the wrong one or both on the bus or got the postions reversed it could explain
the pressure problem and possibly the cooling issue.

The High flow is in the Oil cooler circuit, The low flow is usually routed back into the engine at some point.

If someone put a low flow on the postion for the HIGH flow, It would restrict flow to the oil cooler and make
the engine run hotter.

Now.. If your engine has 195 degree thermostats. It will run up there around 200 but not usually more than 210.
If you change to 180 degree they will only open sooner and not affect the coolant flow.

Are you sure that your temp gauge is working correctly?

But, If someone removed the thermostats, The engine could run hot all the time because that huge water pump
sends so much water through the radiator that it doesn't have time to get rid of the excess heat. ( Dwell Time ).

Just some ideas, Most lifted from previous conversations about cooling issues on different engines. Roll Eyes
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belfert
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« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2006, 05:38:43 PM »

Brian, the Series 60's in the Prevost H3-45's that I work with have a 2 speed electric fan clutch. DDEC controls the fan clutch based on the coolant temp it "sees". At 195 degrees DDEC puts the fan clutch into a partial lock up.  At 205 degrees DDEC puts the fan clutch into a direct lockup. Your temps don't seem way out of line.
Check the oil feed line to your turbo, it goes from the oil cooler housing to the top of the turbo.
One place to check for the leak you mentioned.  Cool

I've always wondered if my electric fan clutch is working 100%.  It does lock up right away when the key is turned on.  I need to call MCI tomorrow anyhow so I'm going to ask them about the temperture issues with my engine.  (A new fan clutch costs $1475 from MCI!)

I looked at the oil feed lines to the turbo today and didn't see any signs of any oil on them.

Brian Elfert
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RJ
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« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2006, 05:53:28 PM »

My guess. . .

Leaking oil filter(s).  After cleaning off the engine, buy a couple of replacements, pull the old ones, and check the gasket seating surface very closely.  I've had pieces of the old gasket stick and tear off - instant oil leak!  Hard to see sometimes in the mess, surfaces need to be cleaned thoroughly to find any left-overs.  Be sure to coat new filter gasket with clean engine oil before reinstalling - fill the filters with clean oil, too!  Hand-tight plus 1/4 turn has worked well for me. . .

I remember reading somewhere that the newer 4-strokes run hotter due to emission controls, so your 195 may be normal.  I also think that they have a slightly higher temp tolerance than a two-stroke before catastrophic damage occurs, but am not sure.

There might be some downloadable TSBs (Technical Service Bulletins) on Detroit's website that address the issue, might try searching.

HTH. . .

Wink
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belfert
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« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2006, 06:04:27 PM »

Try replacing the Oil filters, be sure to clean the surfaces carefully and not over tighten.

From the sound of what you were saying about the leak, It really started "after" the oil change or within a short
time period. Maybe you have a bad filter...

This would also explain a lower oil pressure reading. And for my next trick... Do you have 1 or 2 oil filters?

The oil was changed in April about 2,500 miles ago at a Detroit dealer in Roanoke, Virginia.  If the oil change has something to do with this, it took an awful long time to start causing problems since I had good oil pressure and oil fill level until part way through my trip yesterday.  

I have two oil filters and I would hope the mechanic knew which one goes where on a Series 60, but anything is possible.  I'll see if I can figure out which one should go where.

Quote
Now.. If your engine has 195 degree thermostats. It will run up there around 200 but not usually more than 210.
If you change to 180 degree they will only open sooner and not affect the coolant flow.

Are you sure that your temp gauge is working correctly?

But, If someone removed the thermostats, The engine could run hot all the time because that huge water pump
sends so much water through the radiator that it doesn't have time to get rid of the excess heat. ( Dwell Time ).

Just some ideas, Most lifted from previous conversations about cooling issues on different engines. Roll Eyes

I'm not sure the front temp gauge is 100% accurate.  I had C&J Bus Repair install a mechanical temp gauge in the rear a few weeks ago along with replacing the sender for the front gauge.  The Detroit dealer I stopped at in Youngstown, Ohio though the front gauge was reading as much as 8 degrees high, but the rear gauge contradicts that.  The Detroit dealer in Youngtown was able to get the engine to overheat to point of the DDEC alarming, but couldn't find anything wrong and said to drive home while watching the gauge as Youngstown to Minneapolis is pretty flat.

On my trip yesterday, I stopped at a rest stop and left the engine idling at 1000 RPM.  Front gauge was showing 200 degrees and the rear one was actually showing 205 degrees.  I left the engine idling with the engine door open while I went in to use the restroom.  To my suprise, the temp didn't fall more than a few degrees while idling for almost 10 minutes.

Brian Elfert
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belfert
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« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2006, 06:09:04 PM »

My guess. . .

Leaking oil filter(s).  After cleaning off the engine, buy a couple of replacements, pull the old ones, and check the gasket seating surface very closely.  I've had pieces of the old gasket stick and tear off - instant oil leak!  Hard to see sometimes in the mess, surfaces need to be cleaned thoroughly to find any left-overs.  Be sure to coat new filter gasket with clean engine oil before reinstalling - fill the filters with clean oil, too!  Hand-tight plus 1/4 turn has worked well for me. . .

I've never dealt with oil changes on a big engine such as this before.  (Biggest before was a Powerstroke diesel.) Won't I have to drain the oil to replace the filters, or are they placed high enough above the oil pan that little will drain out?

I'll get a better idea of where my problem is when I start up the engine tomorrow and watch for any leaks.

Brian Elfert
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guy 4905
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« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2006, 06:13:27 PM »

One of the places you might want to check on your 60 oil leak is the oil cooler. Where it mates to the block, there are O-rings which harden up and crack over time. The oil from that leak spills all over the oil filters and flows to the back of the pan and back to the  flywheel. Long and short of it if that is your problem, it's a cheap and easy fix. Parts are cheap, and if you take your time and clean everything carefully, it's a snap. Good luck!
Guy 4905
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niles500
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« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2006, 06:46:18 PM »

Brian read section 6 - HTH

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/your_wsf/doing_business_with/contracts/requestforproposals/6674_New130AutoFerriesDesignandBuildContract/RFP_VolV/Part3/engine/S60_A&I%20%207SA747%200405.pdf#search=%22%22series%2060%22%20%22maximum%20coolant%20temperature%22%20diesel%22
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Hartley
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« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2006, 08:10:00 PM »

My guess. . .

Leaking oil filter(s).  After cleaning off the engine, buy a couple of replacements, pull the old ones, and check the gasket seating surface very closely.  I've had pieces of the old gasket stick and tear off - instant oil leak!  Hard to see sometimes in the mess, surfaces need to be cleaned thoroughly to find any left-overs.  Be sure to coat new filter gasket with clean engine oil before reinstalling - fill the filters with clean oil, too!  Hand-tight plus 1/4 turn has worked well for me. . .

I've never dealt with oil changes on a big engine such as this before.  (Biggest before was a Powerstroke diesel.) Won't I have to drain the oil to replace the filters, or are they placed high enough above the oil pan that little will drain out?

I'll get a better idea of where my problem is when I start up the engine tomorrow and watch for any leaks.

Brian Elfert

Filters are AFTER the oil pump so any that you lose will be from the filters as they tip over cause you don't have a good grip on them, You will be wearing oil probably all the way to the armpits. Depending on the size of the filters you may have to replace a gallon or 2 of oil. Mine must hold
about 1/2 gallon each. I always wear most of it by the time I crawl out from under the bus..... Shocked
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