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Author Topic: 10 spd or 13?  (Read 4263 times)
Uglydog56
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« on: September 01, 2011, 02:55:40 PM »

Hello!  I just picked up a 67 crown rv conversion.  It currently has a 220 cummins and a 5 speed in it.  I need a few more gears, and a few more mph, so I'm looking for an rto trans.  I thought the 13 spd with its narrow splits on top might be the better choice but I was hoping for some input from people who have driven both before I laid down the cash.  Thanks!
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Rick A. Cone
Silverdale, WA
66 Crowny Crown "The Ark"
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« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 04:05:13 PM »

I would imagine an RTO9513 ought to be real cheap by now.
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1995 BB All-American - A Transformation.
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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 04:09:31 PM »

And if it were not complicated enough already, I'm told an RT non-overdrive can be converted to an RTO(verdrive), but the shift pattern is altered.  My Crown has a DD 6-71 turbo, RT-11610, with believed-to-be 4.10:1 rear end(s).  1st and 2nd gears are useless except for steep driveways, and it cruises at about 63mph @ 2100 rpm, though the engine will spin a bit faster.  I'll track down and forward some Excel spreadsheets with trans and rear-end ratios, tire circumference, and speeds in gears if you are interested.

On a similar note, CrownCoachJunkies "dukeofmagnolia" in Bremerton may still have a tandem Crown with the 855 Cummins and a 10-speed (I suspect non-RTO) available "on-the-cheap".  I'd be jumping at that if not for upcoming wedding expenses . . . 

Paul in Phelan
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Paul, High Desert CA
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« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 04:10:56 PM »

Bus....wedding....bus....wedding....bus....oh forget it.  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 04:16:15 PM »

Some disillusioned folks would say to "go for the bus"  Wink
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Paul, High Desert CA
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« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 05:04:16 PM »

But not the 13 speed which is about 2.5 to 3.5 inches (forgot....some help here please) LONGER than the famous/infamous RT910/RTO910/RTOO910 close ratio, non synkro, heavy duty, (950 ft lbs low side-1500+ ft lbs hi side) easy shifting, bitchin 10 speed Roadranger.  A 13 speed will fit, but makes the drive shaft just a bit toos short.

My 1974 Crown (37317) had the RTO910 and 3.90 gears and would go an honest 82 mph or sosss at 2100 in 10th.  Cummins small cam 855 250 hp.  Normal starts were in 2nd gear and at 55 mph the coach would run either in 8th, 9th or 10th. Tenth with no head or side wind on level ground.  2165 in 8th, 1722 in 9th, about 1400 in 10th.

One concern would be that I think (not sures) that the Spicer 5 speed has two (2) shift rods while the Fullers (any model) have only one shift rod/tube that twists as well as moves forward and back.  However, converting your Spicer to a Fuller has been done before on Crowns sosss I'm sure you could do it.

My Roadranger shift lever moved about one inch or sooss and took about 3 to 5 pounds of effort to shift gears.  Non synkro for sures, but once you got the hang of it shifting soss quick, it became more shifting some dirt bike rather than a truck tranny.  Very easy to do.  Even 18 year old girls learned how quite easily.  HB of CJ (old coot)


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« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 05:17:18 PM »

If you don't want to go to the little work and some trouble of running a dedicated air line from the shifter to the tranny tower, (Roadrangers require an air line for the range shift) and if you want to keep your already short driveshaft as long as possible, other Fuller trannys will also fit into your mighty Crown Supercoach RV conversion.

Fuller made lots of older model 6 speeds, one model which had about a 32% overdrive 6th gear.  Current Fuller 7 speeds include the nice RT14507 overdrive model which has a 33% overdrive 7th gear and would be nearly perfect with a high powered Crown.  I don't know what your Cummins is other than it may be the older 743 inch 220 Cummins which is a fine older engine.

If you only have the 220, (nothing wrong with that power) then a 10 speed Roadranger is what you want.  He he he, I love a good plan.  The famous/infamous RTO910 Fuller has a 22% od and the rare FACTORY RTOO910 has a 26% od in 9th and an ADDITIONAL 22% od in 10th.  8th gear is direct.  You can easily do the math.  A 220 in a Crown will give you an honest 70 to 75 mph top speed.  Very aerodynamic body.  More to come.  HB of CJ
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Uglydog56
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« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2011, 05:25:28 PM »

It has a single shift rod T905 fuller in it currently.  I've got a driveshaft guy, so not concerned about that aspect.  I'm not afraid of a little chopping, cutting and welding.  More wondering about the larger rpm drops with the 10 speed and how that corresponds to real life - is it really a concern?

gilligcrown, I have looked at Greg's 10-wheeler, and I'm trying really hard not make him an offer on it to get the engine/trans.  I have terminal "while you're in there" disease, and I'm sure I'd end up with a 600hp compound turbo nitroused propaned monster that would be the first one to the top of the hill and right into the gas station on the other side.  Tongue I'm attempting to grow up a little and be content with the 220.  But don't think I don't wonder at weak moments just how much ground clearance you lose with the 855 and if I could live with it, and don't think I haven't searched "cummins big cam" on ebay and craigslist either.
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Rick A. Cone
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66 Crowny Crown "The Ark"
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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2011, 06:32:08 PM »

FWIW IMO the 10 spd RR is your most bullet proof easiest shifting option.  In a typical run up through "all" the gears I will use at most 8 out of the 10 I have available.  More typically I use 7 of them on the way up and maybe 4 or 5 when downshifting.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2011, 07:55:07 PM »

Rick -

IMHO, the basic 5-spd patterned 10-spd RoadRanger is somewhat overkill in a bus, but a SWEET transmission anyway!  Very easy shifting, lots of gears to play with depending on the conditions, and a "pain in the butt" while navigating Los Angeles traffic!

Start in 2nd, then to 4th, pull the button and from 6th on, have fun!

While putting myself thru college, I drove both Crowns & Gilligs with these - 90% of the time shifted like a 5-spd (2, 4, 6, 8, 10), loaded or empty.  Unless it was the HS football team plus gear going to one of the mountain schools for a game, then it was 1,3, 5, 7, 9, 10.

We even had a couple of 40-foot Gillig tandem pushers with this gearbox - no problem, except the shift pattern was backwards!  Great fun to send a newbie out and conveniently "forget" to remind them about this minor detail. . . veteran drivers can be cruel to the new guys!

Bottom line - they came from the factory so equipped, so go for it!

But stay away from 13, 15 or 18 - way, way too much for your application.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2011, 08:04:52 PM »

I'd gladly trade my 643 for a RR!
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2011, 09:14:05 PM »

While a 10 spd overdrive will be more than enough gearing for your Crown, I personally hate the 10spds.  The 5 spd repeat shifting, specifically going from 5th, making the up over and down "U" shift back to the 1st position for 6th gear is a big pain.  I would look for a 9 spd overdrive instead.  Still more than enough gears and, except if you use granny 1st, 2nd through 9th is just a repeat simple H pattern.  I had a truck with a B model 9spd that my driver was more then happy with the trans-so happy he bought the truck from me.
What you should look for is a RTO-12509B.  Then if you bump your Cummins up to 400hp, you'll have enough transmission to handle it.  And the 9spd is the same size as the 10spd.
As previously stated, the overdrive 7spd is another good way to go-then you don't have to deal with any air lines for the range shifter.
Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2011, 09:31:38 PM »

Retired truck driver.  Spent lots of time on 9, 10 and 13 speed transmissions.  I too dislike the ten speed pattern.  My right shoulder is worn out from those things.  Loved the 9/13s.  You can shift them in your sleep - not that you ever doze while driving!  Just bought a 1969 Gillig three axle with a RR RTO915 with a 260 HP Cummins (220 turbo), air suspension.  It has 95,000 miles.  It was converted when new to a grip equipment bus for Paramount Studios. It is perfect for converting to a motorhome.

To the point - I STILL sometimes forget the darn reverse pattern of the OD transmission.  Backing was a joke too when I got it.  It kept turning the wrong way. Oh, that's right, no trailer.  Old habits die hard!

Wouldn't mind finding a Cummins 855 either.  It was one of the Gillig options.  I am told the pan from the 743 will fit the 855.

Anyone know if the shift linkage can be shortened?
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« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2011, 10:01:57 PM »

Ahoy, Uglydog,

In my Eagle-01, I have an M11 Cummins with an RTO1110. 

The Transmission was anRT1110, and I converted it myself, by swapping gears -- NO new gears.  I have a 30 ton press, which would not unstack the gears, and went to a shop with a bigger one.  A regular tranny shop guy patted me on my head, and told me that I would need lottsa new gears, but another shop (my guru) told me that he had done it often  --  was correct.   Now ~~65,000 (new) miles on the box.    Works great.

No problem doing the job, other than being careful not to lose a lot of fingers in the process.  The manual talks a lot about 'timing', but my guru said to pay attention, but that it was very difficult to get it together out of time, and if you managed to, it would not rotate.

Driving it with a very quick electronic engine was not easy.   People would hear me shift that sucker, and would wonder how I ever managed to land a jet on an aircraft carrier.   

I collaborated with a friend, and we have created a synchro system which really works great.  I'd guess that I'm driving the only ten speed synchro transmission in the world.  I designed a 'map' of speeds/gears to be in.  He set up a PLC (Programmable Logic Controller), and display of the gear target, so that when I pull the trigger on the shifter, it gooses the engine to sync.  Just pull it into the gear.  My normal shift on the flat, and warmed up is 1,3,5,7,9,10.  Very slow on hills where I cannot achieve doubles.

Sooooo  we said  “Maybe not rich, but less poor”.  Floated the scheme, and bus, to Williams Controls in Portland.  They make the electronic engine ‘foot throttles’.  They loved it  -  but only for a little while.  They found that there are very few trucks being built, other than the 18 wheel tractors, which are not automated.  This thing does not lend itself too well to the individual installation  --  Too much programming, such that an AutoShift would be more appropriate.  My M-11 does not have the SAE 1939 protocol plug, so the AutoShift was not an option for me.
Soooo   --- We simply had  automated the buggy whip, but I’m very pleased with it, and now even have 100% spares aboard. 

Good luck   /s/   Bob
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« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2011, 11:14:54 PM »

Might one of you fine gentlemen tranny gurus know the gear ratios of the Rockwell model 166-09 nine-speed tranny? I learned to detest my Spicer Super Ten real quick, espescially for down-shifting on mountains, and my diesel mechanic insisted this Rockwell would be the cat's meow for me. It is already installed. Have not been on the highway with the new tranny yet.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
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100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2011, 07:22:14 AM »

Spicer transmissions are old versions of Meritor (Rockwell) transmissions.  My guess it the 9 spd Spicer will have the same ratios as an A model 9spd Meritor.  I'll try to look it up for you.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2011, 07:43:36 AM »

A model Meritor 9spd A model overdrive- 10.50, 7.37, 5.21, 3.78, 2.76, 1.95, 1.38, 1.00, .73.  The B model is very close to the same except it has a 12.56 low-which you don't really need.  If you gear your bus for 1800rpm at 75mph, that will give you a good spread of speeds. That gearing would put you with 12R-22.5's (485rpm tires) at 2100rpm a top speed of 88mph.  If you have an electronic engine, you want to gear it for 1600rpm at 75mph.
1800 at 75 in overdrive is 2465rpm in direct, or 1972 at 60-divide by your 485rpm tires, and you need a 3.90 to 4.11 rear end ratio.
1600 at 75 in overdrive is 2191rpm in direct, or 1753 at 60-divide by your 485rpm tires, and you need a 3.55-3.70 rear end ratio.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2011, 08:04:42 AM »

Some disillusioned folks would say to "go for the bus"  Wink
Maybe that's why my girlfriend ruefully calls my bus "The Mistress".   I think she's just envious of it.   Competition?

John
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« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2011, 09:32:15 AM »

Another consideration is a true "Super 10"

Only 5 shift positions and a splitter. IIRC, gear ratios are evenly spaced for consistent engine rpm targets for shifting any gear.

Split when you want, just shift 5 when you want, no returning to do over the pattern.

Trouble with the transport industry, too many don't call things by the proper name.

Don't confuse a "Super 10" with a "Top 2" or with a "2 speed differential".

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2011, 12:00:07 PM »

Even though I like the Super 10, I would shy away from them.  They are not made anymore-they were problematic-so Meritor gave up on them.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2011, 01:23:04 PM »

I prefer the 10sp even though it is overkill in a bus, 6sp would probably be more than enough. The main gears you need are an OD top and a pretty low bottom for low speed steep grades and maneuvering.

The 9sp I don't like because of the huge gap between 8-9 but that may have been just the model trans I drove.Son't know if it was an OD or direct type. 8 and 9 were either too low or too high, it could have used one gear in between.
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2011, 02:59:24 PM »

This comes from a poor memory from 1970 when assigned a Crown Supercoach school bus which had the RTO910 Fuller 10 speed Roadranger and there was a small 3"x3" pamphlet included in the driver's glove box under the side window.

.82 10th, 1.00 9th, 1.26 8th, 1.59 7th, 2.00 6th // 2.57 5th, 3.14 4th, 3.95 3rd, 4.98 2nd and 6.28 first gear.  These ratios might be a little bit off, but very close to what this cool tranny actually has.  Broomm, broomm, brooom.  Very cool.

Sosss...just add 22% to your present top speed and you are good to go.  Actually, I was told by the former heavy truck racers that the 910 series can handle 950 ft lbs torque in the "low side" and about 1500 ft lbs in the "high side".

And....never start a paragraph with a conjunction.  No...wait.  In 8th, 9th and 10th gears, the infamous RTO910 can handle over 1800 ft lbs. for a short time.  Humm.  Torque totals or something inside the tranny that flexes the case.

The overdrive 9 speeds, in my humble opinion, would not be a good choice in a Crown Supercoach because the bottom 2 gears would be wasted and never used.  However...the top 4 gears would work ok if you needed the road speed.

Gradeability/startability is fine with the RTO910.  My '74 ten wheeler Crown weighed right at 25000 stripped interior and I EASILY started up a 12% gravel forest service road ro 4000feet starting in 1st gear.  HB of CJ (old coot)
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2011, 03:00:26 PM »

Gus-typically the difference between the 9 and 10 spds was between 1st and 2nd gears.  The top 4 gears on each are just about identical.
Top 5 gears on a B model 9spd- 2.79, 1.95, 1.38, 1.00, .73
Top 5 gears on a B model 10spd- 2.48, 1.83, 1.36, 1.00, .75
Top 5 gears on a C model 10spd- 2.64, 1.90, 1.38, 1.00, .74

Not much difference between them.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2011, 03:32:04 PM »

Seems I can't post a longer answer.  You probably (might) have the RT905M which was the Fuller 5 speed of choice way back in the day when Crown Manufacturing offered the Fuller 5 speed in their busses.

Your present gear sets are right around...1.00 in 5th, (high gear) 1.32 in 4th, 2.04 in 3rd,  3.25 in 2nd and around 5.25 to 5.45 in 1st because I can't remember.  The Fuller 5 speed is a short tranny.  The older T906 6 speeds are slightly longer and the older...

and newer 7 and 9 speeds are slightly longer still and the same length, then comes the 10 speeds, then the 13 speeds and the 18 speeds which are the longest.  Remember the Crown drive shaft is kinda on the short side.  U-joint life becomes a concern. 

A 400-750 Cummins Big Cam 855 would love the TO14707 7 speed.  No air lines needed.  Your cool 220 743 would LOVE the RTO910.  Try to stay away from the Super 10...it had a truely weird shift pattern and many a 10 speed driver destroyed them.

Please don't ask how I know this personnally.  Embarrassing.  The RTO910 is now becomming rather hard to find.  Older equipment.  Most now recycled.  Expect to pay no more than $750 for a runner and about $1500 for a rebuilt.  HB of CJ (enough)
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2011, 05:41:03 PM »

Another consideration is a true "Super 10"

Only 5 shift positions and a splitter. IIRC, gear ratios are evenly spaced for consistent engine rpm targets for shifting any gear.

Don't confuse a "Super 10" with a "Top 2" or with a "2 speed differential".

happy coaching!
buswarrior

Mine had the "true Super Ten", and I absolutely hated it. No synchronizers. No problem up-shifting, as long as you do it fast and double-clutching. Down-shifting was another story.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
Rockwell model RM135A 9-speed manual tranny.
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100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2011, 01:52:03 PM »

Tom,

Thanks, didn't know that. The gaps between the two top gears are a lot more in practice than they seem in the chart!

I have a 10sp on my '71 Dodge C900 but haven't driven it enough to notice the similarity. It is a work in progress!
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« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2011, 12:06:08 AM »

The Super 10 I refer to is made by Eaton.

Splitter works the same as on an Eaton 13 speed.

Upshift, flick the splitter, lift throttle, change happens when you break torque, back on the throttle.

Downshift, on the throttle, flick the splitter, lift throttle to break torque, back on the throttle gently to raise revs, catch the shift as the revs rise, back on the throttle in the lower split.

As best as I had heard, they are prone to the same issues regarding the splitter as a 13 or 18 speed.

Tom, what else is wrong with them, I'd like to know, as I have one in a 2001 FLD 120.

happy coaching!
buswarrior



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« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2011, 08:25:01 AM »

On the Super 10's, the splitter usually went south.  But the nice thing is you still have a 5 spd transmission that you can reasonably drive.  What was really destructive was if the splitter was floating between high and low splitter-usually took out the entire transmission.  Also, the Super 10 had a unique transmission case in that it takes a specialty trained mechanic to know how to work on it.
As with any geared transmission, you must keep the oil up to the level of the fill plug.  DO NOT EVER use your finger to feel in down to the oil and be satisfied with that.  A fingers depth of lack of oil can be enough to get the gears out of the oil.  Have seen too many transmission failures because of this.  Quite simply-keep your oil clean, up to the level of the fill plug, don't grind the gears and the Eaton Roadranger transmissions should last well past 1 million miles before overhaul.  When I changed my 13 spd to a 4 spd Allison (wished I had that setup while driving), I had 1.2 million miles on the original clutch and over 800,000mi on the transmission (the original owner blew the transmission at 400,000mi-just before I bought the truck).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2011, 08:52:29 AM »

Thanks Tom.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2011, 10:17:52 AM »

BW & TomC are correct about the "Super10" it is a 5 speed shift pattern that splits each gear as you go up shifting it like a 5 speed.


Steve I don't think yours had a true "Super10" in it. If it did the reason you hated it was because nobody taught you how to properly drive it.
On a true super 10 the only time a clutch should be used is taking off in 1st or reverse!
Let the throttle pedal do the rest!

TomC truth be known the biggest problem with the Super0 was re-teaching old hands to shift it like a the top end of a 13 spd all the time rather than shift 5 times and up shift and do it again and splitting it @ the top.

I know had a little trouble getting used to it, but once I did I loved it! (except I really was a fan of the 13's and 18's). I had 2 drivers who had been driving longer than I was old and they just never could get the hang of the "Super10" and I had to out them back in trucks that had 13's to make them "comfortable" and so I could sleep knowing they weren't destroying my transmissions!
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2011, 11:36:28 PM »

Oh, and out of the fog in my head...

To complete the whole story,


Shift pattern is like this:

      R        3/4         7/8
   
       |------|--------|

     1/2      5/6        9/10


To be proper and correct, there is a range shift in a Super 10, but it is automatic, triggered by the movement of the gear shift lever as it moves between the 5/6 and the 7/8 positions, pneumatically operated.

When shifting 6-7, it takes a little extra flourish with the shifter to get the splitter and the range shift to all happen, and get the gear in smooth as warm butter.

If you're going to try floating the gears, while in 6th, preselect the low range in preparation for 7, lift throttle, shift out of 6 and quick to the right wall in neutral, ever so slight a pause for the range shift to catch up, and then up into the gate for 7, and back on the throttle.

However, for the one I've got, my personal preference is to double clutch both up and down through the range shift in order to get a nice smooth shifting event.

And reverse can be run in high or low split, depending on the speed you'd like to go.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2011, 12:18:47 AM »

BW you again are technically correct.
But I an most other hands I knew/know that were/are truck drivers just get too used to the float to do it any other way! LOL

Don't mean we're right, just the way we has always done it!
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
KY Lakeside Travel's Busted Knuckle Garage
Huntingdon, TN 12 minutes N of I-40 @ exit 108
www.kylakesidetravel.net

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