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Author Topic: VO or WVO in 4 strokes????????  (Read 2248 times)
jackhartjr
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« on: September 17, 2011, 07:06:25 PM »

Hi folks, we hear and read about folks using veggie oil and waste veggie oil in the 2-strokes.  Can it be done in 4-strokes too?  Let's say a Detroit Series-60, a Cat 3406 or Cummins ICX?
Thanks in advance!
Jack
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rgrauto
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2011, 07:39:16 PM »

Jack , my brother in law has a 1993 Dodge with a Cummins 5.9 and has run wvo in it for 3 or4 years now with no problems.  He does have a separate wvo tank with eng. water pre-heater and a large filter with electric heating unit in the filter. Also on the wvo supply hose he has a vacuum and pressure gauges to monitor flow and the need to change filter. Everyone tells you it smells like french fries when vehicle is running, well it may if the fries were cooked in 140wt axle oil!      Glen Rice
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 07:44:15 PM »

You cannot run VO or WVO in a common rail engine they will only take up to B30 diesel or less the last I heard

good luck
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robertglines1
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 07:48:22 PM »

B30? is that like 30% bio(soy)?
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luvrbus
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 07:55:35 PM »

That is right Bob I think the 60 series is B20 tops I heard of B50 being tested in the Cat marine engines never knew the results of the test

good luck
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 08:00:27 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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robertglines1
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 07:59:36 PM »

just looked it up and many manufactures said it voids their warranties.  Thanks lesson for the day.  Local Co-op sell B20    Bob
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belfert
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 05:38:38 AM »

Voiding warranties and it actually working are two different things.  Most people doing WVO are running engines that are out of warranty.  One question would be does it void warranty because the hoses can't handle it, or are there other reasons?

A 1993 Cummins 5.9 should be mechanical and the mechanical engines seem to tolerate unusual fuels better.  The Series 60 has been electronic from day one so you won't find a mechanical version.
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 05:46:59 AM »

Electronic engines do ok on WVO and VO the DDEC 2 strokes run it without much problems but it not a common a rail system,
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kyle4501
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 06:34:32 AM »

Voiding warranties and it actually working are two different things. . . . . .  One question would be does it void warranty because the hoses can't handle it, or are there other reasons?

One must define "actually working"
- runs & drives  short term (less than 5% of the expected life of the engine)
- runs & drives for the normal life expectancy of the engine

I have paid attention to the effects of running VO & WVO. I have seen lots of claims that it is great, but the thing that causes me the most concern is that the scarcity of people who have decent documentation of successful long term use.
To me long term use approaches the normal life expectancy. Unfortunately, on the longest term documentation I have found, it didn't bode well for WVO - all the engines suffered mortal injuries prior to reaching 50% expected life.
Many offer the engines were already worn out before WVO was started - I don't no . . . The indications form the jury don't look so good . . . . To me, it ain't worth the risk.
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 07:02:01 AM »

Kyle like you I don't have answers I know I changed injectors because of filters and the WVO seems to eat the o-rings on the injectors causing fuel leakage into the oil but I haven't checked a bottom to see if any damage has been done,I will hand to the guys that use it they are devoted and will chance it

good luck
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TomC
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 07:30:22 AM »

Some of the engines that could take up to B85 are the Cummins NTC and L10 mechanical, Caterpillar 3306, 3406, 3408 mechanical exterior fuel injection pump (whether mechanically or electronically controlled).  On most other engines that are electronically controlled, B35 might be tolerated.  The new engines with common rail electronic fuel injection are certified up to B20-because of up to 32,000lbs of tip pressure-they won't tolerate the thicker VO.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 02:21:10 PM »

Your talking apples and oranges here. anything with a B is bio diesel now VO. althouth it starts with VO but when the caustic cemicals are used to remove the polimers from the VO is makes the B stuff bad for some O rings and seals. Running VO is a different martter and  might be called B100 but not the same as bio 'Diesel. Jerry
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 08:45:16 PM »

Home made Bio can be bad for your engine.  If it isn't "washed" sufficiently it will contain SOAP and lots of soap will hurt your engine.  The test for soap is cheap and easy and any idiot that makes his own fuel will certainly test for it.  Water in the fuel is bad but it isn't clear to me why cause water injection into the charge air stream is good.  Methanol diluted in the bio is bad.  They used to distill the alcohol off and collect it in a heat exchanger.  The methal alcohol is poison and it is also an expensive ingredient so recovery is important on two grounds.  You pick your favorite.  New process is to mix the old bio by-product with the "new" old waste veg oil and the new oil will leach almost ALL the meth.  But we are talking about the Bio product and I only "think" they mix the Bio with the new feed stock to capture that meth.  Point being....the meth gets removed.  Bio D is a superior fuel in every regard you might care to mention....period.  If the mfr process is wrong the fuel will be wrong.

In Europe BioD is required to be a component of road fuel.  It is a solvent and it keeps the fuel system clean.  It is a superior lubricant to Dino/mineral oil.   Not just as good, no, it is better.  So the engine benefits from the fuel and the engines in Europe should last longer.  BioD reduces the emissions and somehow, out of proportion, it causes the Dino to run cleaner.  The cetane(?) number is better and the engine  knock is reduced with B10 and eliminated with B ? thru B100 in accord with engine design.

If something is contaminated it is bad for you....BioD, or water or sugar or aspirin..,or, gasp. even 12 year old Scotch.

The same comments can be made about WVO.  Engines run fine and for a long time.  Problem is that all VO isn't the same thing and the WVO derived from it isn't either.  Some gets thick as molasses just below room temp.  Such as palm nut oil.  The stuff has to be water "free" and finely filtered and some of it needs to be really hot before you feed it to the combustion camber.  Ever see one of those pics of the combustion chamber that is caked with black oily carbon/soot and the exhaust manifold and valves the same?  Cold dirty oil with a high water content.  Mineral diesel will do the same exact thing if you mix dirt and water into it and get it really cold before you inject it but that doesn't make all Dino D bad for your engine.

Lots of history on this in the archives and now there is more.

John
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 05:33:03 AM »

The state of Minnesota also requires biodiesel in diesel.  Requirement is B5 today going to B20 by 2015.  One school district had to cancel school due to fuel problems in their school buses on a cold winter day shortly after blending started.  I think that was ultimately traced back to something not really related to the biodiesel.  We also had problems with some bad batches of biodiesel at the start.  The thing I don't like about the blending is the extra cost.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 10:26:46 AM »

Brian, that is the reason they don't won't anything above B20 in the engines here the refinery process is not perfected good enough, on tests they run on B20 it varied a bunch fwiw some would go as high as 50%  

good luck
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 12:14:10 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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