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Author Topic: VO or WVO in 4 strokes????????  (Read 2188 times)
jackhartjr
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« on: September 17, 2011, 07:06:25 PM »

Hi folks, we hear and read about folks using veggie oil and waste veggie oil in the 2-strokes.  Can it be done in 4-strokes too?  Let's say a Detroit Series-60, a Cat 3406 or Cummins ICX?
Thanks in advance!
Jack
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« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2011, 07:39:16 PM »

Jack , my brother in law has a 1993 Dodge with a Cummins 5.9 and has run wvo in it for 3 or4 years now with no problems.  He does have a separate wvo tank with eng. water pre-heater and a large filter with electric heating unit in the filter. Also on the wvo supply hose he has a vacuum and pressure gauges to monitor flow and the need to change filter. Everyone tells you it smells like french fries when vehicle is running, well it may if the fries were cooked in 140wt axle oil!      Glen Rice
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2011, 07:44:15 PM »

You cannot run VO or WVO in a common rail engine they will only take up to B30 diesel or less the last I heard

good luck
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robertglines1
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2011, 07:48:22 PM »

B30? is that like 30% bio(soy)?
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2011, 07:55:35 PM »

That is right Bob I think the 60 series is B20 tops I heard of B50 being tested in the Cat marine engines never knew the results of the test

good luck
« Last Edit: September 17, 2011, 08:00:27 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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robertglines1
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2011, 07:59:36 PM »

just looked it up and many manufactures said it voids their warranties.  Thanks lesson for the day.  Local Co-op sell B20    Bob
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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2011, 05:38:38 AM »

Voiding warranties and it actually working are two different things.  Most people doing WVO are running engines that are out of warranty.  One question would be does it void warranty because the hoses can't handle it, or are there other reasons?

A 1993 Cummins 5.9 should be mechanical and the mechanical engines seem to tolerate unusual fuels better.  The Series 60 has been electronic from day one so you won't find a mechanical version.
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2011, 05:46:59 AM »

Electronic engines do ok on WVO and VO the DDEC 2 strokes run it without much problems but it not a common a rail system,
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kyle4501
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« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 06:34:32 AM »

Voiding warranties and it actually working are two different things. . . . . .  One question would be does it void warranty because the hoses can't handle it, or are there other reasons?

One must define "actually working"
- runs & drives  short term (less than 5% of the expected life of the engine)
- runs & drives for the normal life expectancy of the engine

I have paid attention to the effects of running VO & WVO. I have seen lots of claims that it is great, but the thing that causes me the most concern is that the scarcity of people who have decent documentation of successful long term use.
To me long term use approaches the normal life expectancy. Unfortunately, on the longest term documentation I have found, it didn't bode well for WVO - all the engines suffered mortal injuries prior to reaching 50% expected life.
Many offer the engines were already worn out before WVO was started - I don't no . . . The indications form the jury don't look so good . . . . To me, it ain't worth the risk.
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« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2011, 07:02:01 AM »

Kyle like you I don't have answers I know I changed injectors because of filters and the WVO seems to eat the o-rings on the injectors causing fuel leakage into the oil but I haven't checked a bottom to see if any damage has been done,I will hand to the guys that use it they are devoted and will chance it

good luck
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TomC
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« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2011, 07:30:22 AM »

Some of the engines that could take up to B85 are the Cummins NTC and L10 mechanical, Caterpillar 3306, 3406, 3408 mechanical exterior fuel injection pump (whether mechanically or electronically controlled).  On most other engines that are electronically controlled, B35 might be tolerated.  The new engines with common rail electronic fuel injection are certified up to B20-because of up to 32,000lbs of tip pressure-they won't tolerate the thicker VO.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2011, 02:21:10 PM »

Your talking apples and oranges here. anything with a B is bio diesel now VO. althouth it starts with VO but when the caustic cemicals are used to remove the polimers from the VO is makes the B stuff bad for some O rings and seals. Running VO is a different martter and  might be called B100 but not the same as bio 'Diesel. Jerry
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« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2011, 08:45:16 PM »

Home made Bio can be bad for your engine.  If it isn't "washed" sufficiently it will contain SOAP and lots of soap will hurt your engine.  The test for soap is cheap and easy and any idiot that makes his own fuel will certainly test for it.  Water in the fuel is bad but it isn't clear to me why cause water injection into the charge air stream is good.  Methanol diluted in the bio is bad.  They used to distill the alcohol off and collect it in a heat exchanger.  The methal alcohol is poison and it is also an expensive ingredient so recovery is important on two grounds.  You pick your favorite.  New process is to mix the old bio by-product with the "new" old waste veg oil and the new oil will leach almost ALL the meth.  But we are talking about the Bio product and I only "think" they mix the Bio with the new feed stock to capture that meth.  Point being....the meth gets removed.  Bio D is a superior fuel in every regard you might care to mention....period.  If the mfr process is wrong the fuel will be wrong.

In Europe BioD is required to be a component of road fuel.  It is a solvent and it keeps the fuel system clean.  It is a superior lubricant to Dino/mineral oil.   Not just as good, no, it is better.  So the engine benefits from the fuel and the engines in Europe should last longer.  BioD reduces the emissions and somehow, out of proportion, it causes the Dino to run cleaner.  The cetane(?) number is better and the engine  knock is reduced with B10 and eliminated with B ? thru B100 in accord with engine design.

If something is contaminated it is bad for you....BioD, or water or sugar or aspirin..,or, gasp. even 12 year old Scotch.

The same comments can be made about WVO.  Engines run fine and for a long time.  Problem is that all VO isn't the same thing and the WVO derived from it isn't either.  Some gets thick as molasses just below room temp.  Such as palm nut oil.  The stuff has to be water "free" and finely filtered and some of it needs to be really hot before you feed it to the combustion camber.  Ever see one of those pics of the combustion chamber that is caked with black oily carbon/soot and the exhaust manifold and valves the same?  Cold dirty oil with a high water content.  Mineral diesel will do the same exact thing if you mix dirt and water into it and get it really cold before you inject it but that doesn't make all Dino D bad for your engine.

Lots of history on this in the archives and now there is more.

John
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2011, 05:33:03 AM »

The state of Minnesota also requires biodiesel in diesel.  Requirement is B5 today going to B20 by 2015.  One school district had to cancel school due to fuel problems in their school buses on a cold winter day shortly after blending started.  I think that was ultimately traced back to something not really related to the biodiesel.  We also had problems with some bad batches of biodiesel at the start.  The thing I don't like about the blending is the extra cost.
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« Reply #14 on: September 22, 2011, 10:26:46 AM »

Brian, that is the reason they don't won't anything above B20 in the engines here the refinery process is not perfected good enough, on tests they run on B20 it varied a bunch fwiw some would go as high as 50%  

good luck
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 12:14:10 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: September 22, 2011, 12:10:42 PM »

The problem that that school bus outfit would most assuredly have would be clogged filters.  As a solvent, the BioD loosens all the crap in the tank and fuel lines an sends it to the fuel filters.  Be prepared for that if anyone uses that Minn fuel or gets Bio anywhere.  That they had to take a day to change out the filters after a few days operations surprises me not in the least.
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« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2011, 12:19:12 PM »

The B is short for biodiesel  WVO is waste vegetable oil and SVO is straight or unused vegetable oil.  Any and all diesel engines will make anyone of these fuels go pow in the cylinder.  The question as if it will hurt the engine is no longer really a debate.  If done correctly running any of these fuels has been proven and documented with no negative reports.  I am you monkey with well into the hundreds of thousands of miles on mine and my wifes vehicles.  I am guessing we are nearing the 250,000 mark.  Have we had trouble? Yes!  Was it as a result of the fuel? No, not directly.

When running SVO or WVO it must be heated to engine temps prior to engine entry.  The viscosity is too high when cold and the spray pattern from the injector is not fine enough with high viscosity fuel.  Heat it and it lowers the viscosity and the spray pattern allows a complete burn of the fuel.  If it does not completely burn or explode then you run into the risk of wet fuel leaking past the rings and getting into the engine oil sump.  Translated-burn up your engine or at least shorten the life.

First hand knowledge on anyone of these fuels vs. rubber.  The rubber fuel lines and rubber o-rings can not handle biodiesel, WVO or SVO.  It will destroy them really quickly.  When I installed my two tank heated WVO system in the bus I procrastinated on changing the crossover return ful line and a couple others.  It liked to have bit me in the arse and left me on the side of the road.  I only got 3000 miles out of the hoses after running WVO.  I changed them with viton rubber fuel hose.  Get ready they are high priced.

I lost the return fuel line on my tractor as it was rubber.  That was a $1.39 fix.  Thats it out of 250,000 miles collectively on 2 jettas, 2 tractors, a bus and an Excursion.

I am wondering if when Rudolph Diesel decided to change from sunflower oil as a fuel to Diesel fuel from crude, if he was met with near as many neah sayers?  I got a brother who is the worst neah sayer of all.  Everytime he hears my truck or something had to go to the shop, the first thing he says "I told you not to run that thing on grease".  My answer is the same general answer "I am getting my oil changed" or whatever it was.  
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« Reply #17 on: September 22, 2011, 12:37:05 PM »

If there ever was a reason to do lube oil analysis on an engine, this is it

(burning waste and vegetable oil, that is).
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luvrbus
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« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2011, 12:50:10 PM »

Wayne, how many of your vehicles have the common rail system ? the ones you mention have a injection pump right,Sunflower oil was a big improvement for Rudolph the coal dust didn't work out very good for him 


good luck
« Last Edit: September 22, 2011, 01:05:47 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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wal1809
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« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2011, 01:18:51 PM »

None!  common rail will run Bio Diesel in amounts of 100 percent.  However if there is plastic or rubber there will be failure.  The only reason the manufacturer states a limited amount of BD is because the dilution of the fuel stops it from hurting the rubber and plastic pieces.  BD done right is as close to the same specific gravity as diesel fuel as you can expect.  No reason the common rail won't handle it other than rubber or plastic.
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« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2011, 02:15:07 PM »

I really cannot understand what you are saying Wayne about o-rings and rubber on a common rail engine your 6v92 is full of o-rings and rubber.
I don't know that much about the B20 or WVO to comment much one way or the other,John Deere does a lot of research on B diesel and they are still at 20% max with diesel headed for 6 bucks a gal next year the fashion maybe to knock off a McDonald's for the oil LOL

good luck
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« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2011, 02:59:39 PM »

The problem that that school bus outfit would most assuredly have would be clogged filters.  As a solvent, the BioD loosens all the crap in the tank and fuel lines an sends it to the fuel filters.  Be prepared for that if anyone uses that Minn fuel or gets Bio anywhere.  That they had to take a day to change out the filters after a few days operations surprises me not in the least.

I find it hard to believe that almost all of the school buses in one district would happen to clog filters on the same day.  This happened two or three months after biodiesel blending started and it was one of the first really cold days of the winter.  I didn't read a lot of other reports of filters clogging.  Most of the biodiesel problems the first winter were traced back to bad batches of biodiesel.

In my case I've never had any fuel filter related issues since biodiesel blending started, but I also change my fuel filters every year even if I only drive four or five thousand miles so I am not typical.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2011, 06:16:39 PM »

I really cannot understand what you are saying Wayne about o-rings and rubber on a common rail engine your 6v92 is full of o-rings and rubber.
I don't know that much about the B20 or WVO to comment much one way or the other,John Deere does a lot of research on B diesel and they are still at 20% max with diesel headed for 6 bucks a gal next year the fashion maybe to knock off a McDonald's for the oil LOL

good luck
I have no more rubber fuel lines.  If the rubber orings in the pump or the injectors give way then I will deal with it then.  I will have them replaced with viton and be done with it.
John Deer, Kubota, Volkswagen and all the big manufacturers will not go over b20 as they know they can't warrantee the fuel systems.  If they would just use viton and stainless steel we could all benefit from it.  A major concern is if there is not a complete burn, the fuel can get past the piston rings and contaminate the oil.  If it polmerizes in the oil then that engine would suffer failure.  There are ways around it.
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2011, 07:06:00 PM »

Wayne, with what you are saying it would scare me to death to use WVO in a 92 series each piston has a 4 inch o-ring between the dome and the skirt on the piston.
I'll get a engine in some day that has used VO and WVO for a period of time then I'll know but right now I am not going to say yea or nay 

good luck

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robertglines1
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2011, 07:24:34 PM »

I'm usually one of the first to try something new. Still scares me. Just entering the 60series adventure myself. Think I'll just bite the bullet until something more conclusive is decided. The extra mileage I pick up from the 60 and eaton 10spd will just go to offset the increase fuel$.  The cost of repair or breakdown could wipe out any savings quickly. Did learn allot from this post to look out for in future discussions.  Still not there for me!   Bob
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2011, 03:48:57 AM »

Wayne, with what you are saying it would scare me to death to use WVO in a 92 series each piston has a 4 inch o-ring between the dome and the skirt on the piston.
I'll get a engine in some day that has used VO and WVO for a period of time then I'll know but right now I am not going to say yea or nay 

good luck



Hello CLifford,  I can't see an oring on the piston being constructed of real rubber.  With piston temps reaching 600 degrees real rubber would be destroyed by heat alone.  I don't remember there being a rubber oring on the piston.  It has been nbear 23 years since I was inside one though.   The key we can both agree on here is if the piston has an oring the wvo should never touch the oring.  If wvo is heated and gets proper bang then no wvo should ever see the oring on the piston.  Run cold oil and it could get there.
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2011, 06:09:48 AM »

The only 2 stroke engine I've seen used in big numbers using WVO is the Detroit 2-71 that used to be used as a generator on trains for refrigerated cars.  They run well on the WVO, but it does built up gunk that has to be cleaned periodically-they didn't say at how many hours-but the pictures I saw with the gunk built up to the point that the exhaust valves would not close was eye opening.  If you're willing to more or less tear the engine down at a much closer frequency then when running on Diesel, then go for it.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2011, 06:29:29 AM »

Wayne I can see where it would get there through a leaking injector from the top or from the oil I am not near afraid of your WVO system as the used engine oil been there done that on a engine,I like you guys out look on the stuff (the saving offset a engine rebuild) but I reservations about that one lol.
Reading the fuel spec on the MTU site they don't want over 5% Bio diesel in those engines I have no idea whats going on there it was 20%

good luck
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2011, 04:23:04 PM »

It can be done!!!!

I have been running my 6V92 on WVO for years now with no problems !! Also in my fleet is a cummins 5.9 , a mercedes 300SD a Listeroid , and a Witte Engine. Newest member is my MCI 102D3 with a Detroit 60 . There are small problems to trick the Ecm about fuel temps and some....  But so far running great !
All engines that i run had no problems related to the use of wvo. And even my cummins with 500k miles on it looked clean with no deposits on injectors , on Pistons, or Valves !!

Only Wvo related problem i had , is a seized Injector pump. It seized up due to fast of a Temp change while switching back to cold diesel!!  ( this was on one of my first conversions).

I do Oil Analysis on each of them , and have the oil changed more often, depending on how often i stop and switch between fuels!!


Yes i have seen lots of damaged engines from WVO, mostly injection problems.
These are all related to bad fuel (wvo) or to bad systems (poor filtration and preheatings)

Just my two cents!!!
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