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Author Topic: What causes tag axle tires to scallop?  (Read 4218 times)
belfert
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« on: October 09, 2011, 04:21:39 PM »

My tag axle tires are wearing in a weird pattern.  There are spots were it looks like "scallops" like somebody used a large pocket knife to carve out a chunk of the tire.  Could this be problem with alignment of the wheels somehow?  The two tag wheels are independent of each other.  The tires have maybe 30,000 miles on them.

I'm thinking I may need to buy new steer tires next Spring/Summer and move the steer tires to the tag.  I should probably take the bus to Precision Frame and have them look at the tire wear.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2011, 05:00:38 PM »

I have seen that problem many times on G159 Goodyears.   At a rally, Goodyear claimed they had never seen that.   Goodyears are not on my list of replacement tires.   Either they lied, or were so ignorant, I will spend $$ with other companies.

After further investigation, I was told that some companies put "equalizer" grooves on the outside diameter.   They need strength so they don't get ripped-off.   Supposedly, the equalizer grooves prevent/minimize the "scallops".

Ed Roelle
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luvrbus
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« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2011, 05:33:00 PM »

On your bus with air bags only on the tags I would check the air pressure on the down force Dina's are famous for not having enough down force or weight on the tags ,then if the shocks haven't been replace that is another problem that will cause cupping along with running to low of tire pressure

good luck
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belfert
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« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2011, 05:40:16 PM »

Tires are Firestone FS590 Plus currently running about 85 PSI.  It don't know that it is cupping.  It is like someone removed chunks of the tire with a pocket knife like whittling.

The air gauge on the tag air bag regulator shows the proper 43 PSI for the air bags.  I noticed there is a second pressure regulator under the bus that has a tag that says it is hard set at 43 PSI.  What would be a good way to verify the air pressure?

The two rear axles weigh approximately 27,000 lbs.  I don't recall what the tax axle alone weighed off the top of my head.

What is a good way to test if the shocks are good?  I was told when the brakes and bearings were done that the shocks were good at that time.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 05:42:03 PM by belfert » Logged

Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2011, 10:05:49 PM »

With tags, it's bouncing, loose bushing/locating points, or flat spots from sliding a tire under braking.

Put the tag axle on the scales and see what you get for a load. Even better if you can check each one separately. Need a scale with lots of room around it...

For what a pair of shocks cost, if you haven't done them, call it preventive maintenance and rule them out?

happy coaching!
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« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 04:56:40 PM »

Brian, you make it sound like the tires are "chunking" or losing part of the tread.  If that is the case, it would almost surely be a defective tire.  I can't imagine getting two defective tires.

I suspect the what you are describing is a wear issue, albeit a strange one.  Wheel bearing that are adjusted too loose will give strange wear patterns and it doesn't take much (voice of experience).

You could check the pressure by putting a gauge in the air line - can probably put a "T" in at the air inlet to the airbag, or simply unhook the tubing and terminate it with a gauge.  if it were me, I would put a permanent gauge in the system and mount it in the driver compartment.  You could go one step further and have either a dump valve or regulator in the driver area to help with traction or on sharp turns.

You could also check the axle by running it across scales (many rock quarries will work with you, or you could go to a truck stop and pay to have it weighed).  Be sure to weigh each axle.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 05:44:27 PM »

I should take a picture of the wear issues on the tires if I can.  I have the exact weights of each wheel somewhere and I haven't added anything since the weights were taken.  I'll have to see if Precision Frame still has the weights in their computer.

There is already a pressure gauge at the regulator for the air bags.  I just want to verify the pressure.  Dina is pretty adamant about running 43 PSI.  I'll have to trace the tubing and find a place to put another gauge.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 06:39:21 PM »

Brian, it really sounds like wheel hop caused by poor shock absorbers. The only real way to check a shock on a bus is to remove it and see if it has the required push/pull. CAUTION: some shocks only have push and some only have pull, depending on application, see what your mfg requires since if you pull one off, you might as well replace it.

The tech telling you that the shocks look good, was worth exactly what he told you. They weren't leaking fluid and there was no visible damage. Without pulling the shock there really was no other test he could do.

Shocks are under $100/ea... depending on what you want, while your at it change the others too, they are probably all about the same age.

Good luck to you my friend, I hope it works out for ya.
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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 09:21:03 AM »

It looks like I should get new shocks for at least the tag axle and probably just do them all.  I'll have to see if there is a part number on the shocks anywhere.  I would prefer not to order them from MCI if I can help it.
 
C&J Bus Repair redid all my brakes and wheel bearings when I bought the bus.  I asked about the shocks and JD said they were about the only thing that was still good at that time.  I doubt the shocks have ever been replaced knowing the track record of my bus.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 10:44:24 AM »

Use Gabriel  85-314 for the front then use Gabriel 89425 gas adjustable for the rear and tag set on med to start with if you don't like ride adjust more or less and you can order those shocks through Auto/Zone for 50 bucks ea

good luck
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 10:50:53 AM »

Use Gabriel  85-314 for the front then use Gabriel 89425 gas adjustable for the rear and tag set on med to start with if you don't like ride adjust more or less and you can order those shocks through Auto/Zone for 50 bucks ea

It seems you have recommended these same shocks for Eagles too.  Do the Dina and Eagles take the same size shock?
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 10:56:10 AM »

Yes they do and so do most buses, just never use a single action shock on the front they need to be double action shocks you have 6 or 8 shocks I seen Dinas with both setups   

good luck
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« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 11:04:58 AM »

I checked the Autozone website and called a local store.  They don't even have the price on the 85314 and said they would need to order it from the manufacturer.  The other they can get no problem.  Ryder Fleet Products shows four weeks for the 85314.  I don't have a problem waiting a few weeks if necessary.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 11:22:42 AM »

I buy those shocks from Auto/Zone here all the time the last ones were 51.80 with tax I just checked a invoice,sorry Brian it is the 89425 I buy I do have to wait on the front from Ryder,check Jefferson in OKC he stocks the 85314 have no idea about the price but sometimes he is cheaper on shocks than most places 

good luck
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 11:30:39 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2011, 12:50:04 PM »

http://www.amazon.com/Gabriel-85314-FleetLine-Heavy-Absorber/dp/B004K7XQ2S

http://gabriel.com/our-products/heavy-duty-commercial/heavy-duty-detailed-product-page?partnum=85314

Google the part number, lots of good results.
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« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 04:55:29 PM »

Maybe...I can shed a tiny bit of light....
Luvrbus' theory (the down force) seems dead on to me, and here is why.
I bought a brand new two axle 16 foot trailer and hauled it 6000 miles (home) empty, no noticeable tire wear.....then I hauled it the exact same 6000 miles back...overloaded/full.
Because it was not level the tires on the front axle "scalloped".<BADLY> Huh Undecided Huh Angry Huh
the weight was primarily on the rear axle.
Being as thrifty as i am and cuz it was a trailer i rotated my tires every 1500-2000 miles to get my $$ out of them.
The next set of tires, no problem, and all i did was drop the hitch ball 2 inches.
Then again i could be full of mud.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 06:55:19 PM by eagle19952 » Logged
belfert
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« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2011, 06:33:58 PM »



Notice that Amazon says it takes 1 to 2 months to get.  Most of the results I found on Google were search engines that pointed back to Amazon or a few other sites.  Some sites had no price listed.  Ryder Fleet Products says up to 4 weeks to get.  It really doesn't matter to me if it takes a month to get these as they aren't going to get installed until next year.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2011, 06:51:38 PM »

I really have no idea what the correct weight distribution between the tag axle and drive axle should be.  Is there a hard and fast rule?
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2011, 07:51:20 PM »

Hmmm, this got me to thinking. When we are going down the highway as a certain speed, I think around 60, we get a vibration that seems to be coming from the tag axle area. If we speed up or slow down, the vibration goes away. Would that be from wore out shocks?
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« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2011, 09:27:24 PM »

Ruthi -

Could be a tire, worn shocks, bad bearings in tag, or possibly a u-joint in the driveshaft starting to go.

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink
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« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2011, 08:30:33 AM »

Thanks RJ
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Mixed up Dina, ready for the road as of 12/25/2010
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« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2011, 03:45:05 PM »

I took the bus over to Precision Frame in Elk River, MN today to get their opinion on my strange tire wear on my front tires and my tag tires.  Dick the owner helped me out and said that there are no issues with the shocks or the suspension.  He said the issue is with the tires themselves.  One front tire has issues and one tag tire has issues.  The tires are out of round and possibly not balanced properly.  He said the front tire could be trued up, but that the tag tire is beyond hope.  The tires may not have mounted properly to cause the out of round issue.

It looks like the best bet will be to get two new steer tires and rotate the steers to the tag axle.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2011, 04:23:37 PM »

Brian,
Funny you should mention that.

A couple yrs ago I had a loaner coach from SETRA that rode so bad I parked it and told them to bring me another.
(this was after hauling a load of farmers to a CO-OP sponsored event and they told me they had tractors that rode better than the bus did.)

Several even told me they could make it ride better. When I asked how they told me to "start driving it in fields!"

SO Setra had me take it to a tire dealer that could balance the tires on it.
Which I did I took it to Best One Tire in Paducah and Setra paid them to take all the wheels off and balance them.
After that it rode somewhat better, but still rough.
Setra didn't think Best One did a good job balancing them and had me take it to another place where they tried to balance them and told me that some of them were so out of round balancing wasn't the problem or cure.
Setra told them and me we were crazy all it needed was balanced.

Well I parked it and only used it after the last of the 2 80's model MCI 96A3's we had then had left the yard.
When Setra finished our bus we took it back to them and I had the main guy over customer service got for a ride with me in it.
He immediately agreed it was terrible and told the service manager "I don't care what it is have it fixed TODAY, our reputation as well as our customers are being damaged by it!"

Well they tried telling me their local tire shop balanced them. But several weeks later when I was back over there I looked @ it and it had 8 new Firestones and I did not see one weight anywhere on the outside of a rim!

I now have all my tires done @ Best One in Jackson, TN and they inflate them laying on the ground lying flat and if it doesn't balance after the second time they call another tire up from the warehouse and send that one back. I watched 'm send back 3 out of 8 one day! But when I hit the rode that bus rode better than ever! (they have there own warehouse next door)
It cost me $150 or more per tire than it used to when I was buying my Kumho's directly from the tire warehouse in KY and having my local guy install them, but hauling people the ride is worth it.
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: November 07, 2011, 05:03:09 PM »

At least the front tires have weights on them so they were balanced when I had the tires put on.  Balancing may not be the issue at all since the Precision Frame didn't actually pull the tires to check the balance.

At some point I will take the bus to a tire shop and see if they have the same opinion on the tires. 
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #24 on: November 07, 2011, 06:41:04 PM »

This is a lot easier than arguing with tire shops.

First put a dial indicator on the tire. Micheline says anything over .050 is too much.

Second thing, kind of along the lines of what BK said, is to deflate the tire and rotate it 180 degrees. It isn't the rotation that does anything, its breaking the tire loose from the rim that is the key. Inflating it stretches the tire bead just a little, many times it will self center if you deflate it, break it lose from the rim, and reinflate.

Only after that, should you call foul on an out of round tire.

This is straight from the Michelin shop manual for truck tires, and from my sister who works customer service for Michelin truck tires.
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