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Author Topic: Ack! Blew my wheel bearing en route to Choo-Choo  (Read 6769 times)
Sean
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« on: October 12, 2011, 06:10:15 PM »

Those interested can read the whole saga and its prelude in this post on our blog:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2011/10/houston-weve-had-problem.html

The short version is that the left front wheel bearing is making noise and has detectable flat spots, but no play, and I am 500 miles from the Choo Choo garage.

So here are the questions for the collected wisdom of the group:
  • What are my chances of nursing the bearing to Choo-Choo for Joel to work on it?
  • I am guessing the spindle is either already scored, or will be by the time I get there (if I make it).  I have heard that there are itinerant mechanics who have the equipment to weld some additional material on to the spindle and machine it back to spec right in place.  Can anyone point me to one of these in the Chattanooga area?
  • What else should I be looking and/or listening for, or what else do I need to know?

As always, thanks in advance, and I am still hoping to meet many of you at the BCM rally this weekend.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2011, 06:29:25 PM »

There is a company called Axle Surgeons that has locations all over the country that can replace/repair axle spindles at your location.  www.axlesurgeons.com  There are also other companies that do this type of repair in almost every large city.

I contacted them about 10 days ago to see if they could replace the spindle on our torsion trailer axle, but they couldn't do it.  (Not Surprised really.)  They could only replace it if was on the end of a tube.  If it was a tube I could have just replaced the spindle or the entire axle myself.  A new torsion axle has to be ordered and takes two to three weeks to get.  Nobody stocks them.
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« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2011, 06:36:41 PM »

Sean, I contacted the same company Brian just referenced when I was having problems with the drive axle seal on my Eagle. Didn't use them as I found the cure but sounded as if they could have cut and welded it on the spot.

They have companies all over they contract with to do the work.

 877-349-2953

Ed
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2011, 06:51:57 PM »

Sean,

If it is a wet bearing (oil lubed), I would try to nurse it along to Choo-Choo. I nursed a Diamond Reo tractor-trailer from Bangor to my home in Virginia once. Just try to keep it below 55MPH. Of course, I only had about 8K on the front axle. Not sure what your front axle weighs. It had no play but was making a grinding sound. When I took it apart the rollers fell out in my hand.

TOM
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2011, 06:57:29 PM »

Tom,

They are grease-packed bearings, not the wet type.  I have about 13k on the front, half on each wheel.  No grinding or other sounds when I spin it by hand, just noticeable flat spots.  The sound comes in while driving -- sounds like a scalloped tire.

Our plan is to keep it below 50mph at all times, and lower when we can get away with it.  Makes for a long drive but we'll get great fuel mileage.

-Sean
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« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2011, 07:04:28 PM »

You've got bigger cojones than me if you can bring yourself to drive it but I honestly don't know what the "right" answer is.  I'm sure you know it will get real exciting if it locks up, even at 50 MPH.  If I was going to try to drive it I'd get a grease needle and jam as much new grease into the outside bearing as I could get in there.  And here's a piece of advice from the boating world - don't let an agenda get in the way of the right decision.
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« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2011, 07:56:47 PM »

...  I'm sure you know it will get real exciting if it locks up, even at 50 MPH.  ...

True, and this makes me wonder if it might be possible to pull the whole hub off and switch it with the tag axle.  That would at least move the problem to someplace where it would cause fewer issues.

Quote
If I was going to try to drive it I'd get a grease needle and jam as much new grease into the outside bearing as I could get in there.

OK.  Is this a common tool that I might find at Wal-Mart or maybe Lowe's?  I have a grease gun, with a nipple on it for zerk fittings.  And does this basically puncture the seal?

-Sean
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« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2011, 08:35:45 PM »

A needle has a zerk with a long tube doubt if WM will have one most Napa's do,depends on how your bus is set up it may not work for you without removing the nut and washer on the spindle
 
If it is not generating heat I would easy on to the rally bearings will run a long time without seizing with ruff spots not the way I like to do it but not much of a choice for you, a bearing for a Neoplan may be hard to find and if you had hurt the spindle you would be setting on the side of the road    


drive safe and be careful  
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 08:46:23 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2011, 08:39:11 PM »

Sean - we are currently parked at Choo Choo, and will be here tomorrow as well having, ironically, our bearings and other things checked over.  If there is *anything* at all that we can help facilitate on this end for you, please let us know.

As we only just learned about the full dangers of wheel bearing going out this morning in the safety workshop, I can offer no words of expertise.  Obviously there are definite advantages to making it to Choo Choo on many levels, however do what feels like the right decision for YOU.

When/if you do make it, there will be hugs and wine awaiting you.

 - CnC

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« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 08:52:29 PM »

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NAPA-Grease-Gun-Fitting-Needle-Type-Adapter-Lubemax-/160628547397?pt=Motors_Automotive_Tools

Sean, It looks like this.. Lots of auto parts stores have them. Hope this helps...Cable
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Sean
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« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 09:04:16 PM »

...
If it is not generating heat I would easy on to the rally ...  

Sorry, I wrote this in the blog post, but neglected to mention it here.  They are generating a little heat, though it was not enough to be detected by the tire monitors.

When I checked the hubs after stopping at the I-95 rest area, the three good hubs read 96-98 and the bad hub read 151 on the IR gun.  After nursing the bus another 30 miles to tonight's stop, keeping it to 50mph, the bad hub read 110 while the good hubs were 86.

Does that change your advice?

...  If there is *anything* at all that we can help facilitate on this end for you, please let us know.
...
When/if you do make it, there will be hugs and wine awaiting you.


Thanks, I will let you know if I need anything.  I knew you were in the shop from Mike, whom I had asked for assistance in teeing up the bearing replacement with Joel next week.  I need to get the parts started on coming from Europe and Choo Choo is as good a place as any to have them sent.

If I make it to Chattanooga, I will go to the park for the rally on Saturday and roll over to the shop Monday, where I need to be anyway for my workshops.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2011, 05:24:33 AM »

Sean,

With no grinding I would run it. It's not getting hot enough to worry me either. If you can remove the bearing cap & shoot some new grease in there I would do it.

Another method would be to replace the outer cap with an oil bath type cap. Then fill it with 140 wt. gear oil to make it a wet type wheel bearing. You would have to keep filling the reservoir up since the oil would work it's way through to the back bearing as you drive. The down side is your inner seal may leak & ruin the brake linings but they are probably cheaper than having the problem fixed on the side of the road.

You should be able to buy a oil bath type cap at NAPA if you have standard hubs. Not sure about the Neoplan.

I would probably try this but I am known for harebrained schemes, and I did it before on a loaded trailer axle. It lasted about 300 miles to my destination. Ruined my brake shoes though.  BK would probably try it too.  Grin

How about it, Clifford? You are probably the voice of reason here...   Grin

TOM
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« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2011, 05:41:25 AM »

If it's the outer bearing, it's not too hard to remove and replace. Bearings are usually identified by size, not by the end user, and you may well be able to find a replacement at NAPA or a similar supplier. If it's the inside bearing, it's only a little harder (must remove wheel and hub/drum), but still not beyond the ability of a reasonably trained mechanic. Might save you the headache of repairing or (!) finding a new one. Good luck.
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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2011, 06:36:04 AM »

... You should be able to buy a oil bath type cap at NAPA if you have standard hubs. ...

Tom, nothing about my hubs is standard, so I will not be able to find a replacement cap of any sort, let alone a changeover to the oil bath style.  The hub assemblies are Mercedes parts that were never sold in North America; even the wheels are different, and I need to buy my wheels from Van Hool (same wheel, different bearings).  And I think Clifford is right, I won't be able to get a grease needle past the outer seal with the nut in place.

.... Bearings are usually identified by size, not by the end user, ...

Sure, but see above.  AFAIK, no North American hubs have the same spindle dimensions or hub bore as these Mercedes items, so while bearings must exist, there would be no reason for anyone in North America to stock them.  I am expecting to have to order the bearings from Germany.  Would love to find out otherwise, though.

Quote
... If it's the inside bearing, it's only a little harder (must remove wheel and hub/drum), ...

I know from experience that the inner seal is damaged when removing the inner bearing, and replacement seals must come from Germany (went through this before, when we had them repacked).  So even if I could get bearings here, we can't do the inners without the seals, and that's a minimum of three days, assuming I already know where to have them sent.

As I wrote in the blog post, if I had hubs that used standard North American parts, this whole issue would be a non-event -- we'd already be in a shop somewhere in North Carolina having the bearings changed.  So I really started this thread because I believe the parts are unavailable in this country.

I'd love to learn that I am just wrong about this, and that since January of last year the Uber-Fledermaus Deluxe brand of coach has been imported and uses these hubs, bearings, seals, etc. and all I need to do is call the Fledermaus dealer and buy them.  I'd even be happy to learn they are available at Napa, but I'd need a cross-reference.  My experience is that you can't walk into a Napa with an unmarked part in your hand and have them match it, especially something as precise as a bearing.  The first question they ask is "what's it from" and "1985 Neoplan Spaceliner" is not in their cross-reference book.

I can hear a number of you thinking that if parts are so hard to come by, I should have spares for everything, and in the case of a wheel bearing set that is used on four of the six hubs, you are probably right.  But these parts are double, triple, or up to ten times what equivalent US parts cost.  Some examples:

- A set of front brake linings cost me $600, plus air freight from Europe.  US linings would have been perhaps $80, and entire shoes (unavailable in my case) perhaps $120.

- The aforementioned inner seals for the wheel bearings cost me $20 apiece, plus air freight from Europe.  US-spec items would have been maybe $5 each.

I am not looking forward to the price quote on the bearings.  And, of course, I will buy both the inner and outer even though I don't know which one is bad, because I don't want to be sitting in the shop for another three days waiting for the parts, nor does it make sense to disassemble and reassemble the hub twice.

I'll probably buy two sets, so I have a spare.  I might have the second set installed on the other front wheel, and keep the take-offs as my emergency set.  And I'll also buy two more inner seals so we can repack the tag bearings while we're at it.

Thanks for all the help -- heavy-duty running gear is not my strong suit.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2011, 07:03:39 AM »

Man, that's tough!!

I knew a lot of stuff on your bus was not American but was hoping the running gear was something you can get here. I see that's not the case.

You are probably right in buying the extras and keeping them. I don't know if I would install both front sets. Wheel bearings are fairly easy to check. If they don't have any fatigue cracks in the rollers or scaring on the races I would repack them & keep my new ones. Then again, I have the facilities to replace them myself & don't travel as much as you. Tough call.

I hope you make it!!

TOM
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« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2011, 07:06:11 AM »

I realize that it doesn't help you now but, if you have the bearing in your hand, you can often cross the actual bearing number rather than the equipment manufacturer's number (which may be different).

You may need a magnifying glass, but the number is engraved on the bearing somewhere.  Unfortunately, that doesn't apply to seals.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2011, 07:16:35 AM »

Sean,
As you & I well know our German mistresses do create problems when parts are needed.

However sometimes I get lucky and do find replacements (matched up) here in the US.

OK now I know your not used to having the parts counter guys go out of there way to assist you in these needle in a haystack searches. Mostly due to the fact that these days most parts guys couldn't find a rag to wipe the dipstick if it's not listed with a part # on their computer screen.
And those that could are just to lazy to put forth the extra effort for Joe Blow that just walked in off the street who has never bought anything from them before.

But that is where guys like Don, Joel, Clifford, myself and anyone else who has a good personal relationship with our parts guys. We have the advantage because we buy lots of parts from these guys and most times they will go out of the way to help us.

That said it still doesn't help you here.
I suggest you do just as you mentioned and go ahead and order 2 sets of bearings (and races) and 4 seals.

That way you can have Joel change the front bearings and seals, and repack the tag bearings and replace the seals.

Then since you'll have new bearings and seals in hand have Don or Joel take them to their local parts guru and/or the local bearing house and see if they can match them up and get you part #'s and a set of new spares. By all means if you can't get new save the good used set for an emergency & order a spare seal for later and have it shipped anywhere here in the US. (I know I'd be more than happy to receive it and forward it to wherever you were going to be and I'm pretty sure Don, Mike or many others of us would too!)

When I say local bearing house most larger cities have a place that specializes in bearings & seals. (especially industrial areas)
You'd be surprised at what kinds of industrial machine might use the same bearings +/or seals as your bus. As said else where the bearings are made for other applications and Neoplan, Setra, MCI or whoevers engineers choose from existing sizes to meet their needs.

And yes Tom once I had my passengers being transported safely on a different bus, I would limp it home.

OH yeah Sean you should be able to find a oil bath cap @ either NAPA or a large fleet or truck parts supply house. (I replace them from time to time on my European Setra's)
  
Let us know if there is anything we can do to help. (although I'm sure Mike, Don, & Joel are more than capable of handling it!)
Grin  BK  Grin
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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2011, 07:21:37 AM »

It took me 3 weeks to get bearings and seals for my neighbors Neoplan it is a smaller Neo than Seans I bought the bearings and seals from a outfit in England for a ridiculous price but were 1/2 the price from Neoplan they were made by SKF they are a weird size.
 
I don't what to tell you Sean my hubs were wet and the 140 + degree range is were they ran I was surprised at your temps running that cool with packed bearings you learn something every day,when the paint starts to bubble that will stopping time but if I could touch the hub I kept going

good luck
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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2011, 07:28:21 AM »

I would check often that the big nut that holds the hub on is where it is supposed to be, I have no idea if those hubs are set with the nut locked but loose, or if the nut gets torqued to some specification.  Taper roller bearings come both ways.

I had one car that the rear wheel bearing was originally used in a German elevator.  You could find them, but they were $350 each.  Often the bearings cross reference but to a different ABEC rating.  We don't need ABEC 7, but we can sure use the bearing...

Brian
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2011, 08:01:05 AM »

Sean if you are confident that you have not lost the lubricant and the hub temps are where you have noted I would doubt very much that you have damaged the spindle.

Also after it gets disassembled take a good look and verify that the races have not "broke free" and have not been rotating in the hub.

I have had hubs apart on semi trlrs that had got hot enough to "blue" the metal of the spindle and still went back together without incident.

Greased hubs.....hmmmmmmmmm. interesting. The trucking industry is going back to this on semi trlrs and I believe it is preferable to 90wt. At temp the grease will liquefy and then turns to oil and centrifugal force throws it out to the rollers just the same.  Then when you park it cools and solidifies and you eliminate leaking out. I like that idea allot. Prevo hub seals are notorious for leaks grease over 90wt would eliminate that.

I think you will make it be careful but If you hear something drastically change sound I would stop immediately and I mean immediately wherever you are for worry about damage to the spindle.

Be careful and good luck

If it starts squeelin and you stop immidiatly often the spindle will still be servicable. Continuing as littile as 1 mile further will ruin it.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 08:46:28 AM »

Typical wheel bearing grease is stable up to around 500 degrees F according to data sheets I have read.  If it is thinning out  to equivalent of 90  weight gear oil at normal wheel bearing operating temps (under 150 degrees F), it's some funky grease.

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/bp_internet/castrol/castrol_usa/STAGING/local_assets/downloads/p,q/pds_WB_Grease.pdf

"Dropping Point" is the specification for the temperature where a grease thins out enough to form a drop of fluid.

Brian
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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 09:03:09 AM »

Having spent time working on British aircraft I found out a couple of things about bearings
1. All are actually in metric sizes.
2. A good bearing house can find almost any bearing by micing the inside Dia, out side Dia and width then matching. Note I said bearing house - not auto parts store.
3. above info also holds with seals - may not be exact but will work fine.
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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 10:03:05 AM »

I had a huge bearing supply in Phoenix looking for the bearings for Claude's Neo the problem we ran into was the degree of the taper and the size of the roller 

We could find the size OD and ID and several told us the angle of degrees and bearing size with changing the race would not make a difference but we choose not to go that route we figured there had to be reason so we ordered the originals

good luck
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« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 10:17:48 AM »

  I havnt bought bearings and seals from parts stores since I was 20 something. I took apart a Mercury Outboard lower unit, and when I heard what Mercury wanted for seals and bearings, some were well over $100 (in the mid 80's), I found a bearing house and bought the $100 plusers for like $12.

  Most major cities have a bearing supply house, just look in the yellow pages uinder bearings. If they can find bearings and seals for Ferrari's and obscure 1950's foriegn cars they can find the stuff for a Bus. And anything can be overnighted.

  I think you can also turn too slow with a bad bearing, and they can get too tight. It may be advisable to back off the nut a titch so it wont bind (1/4 to half turn out). If the rollers start binding you run the risk of spinning the cups in the hub. Then you'll not only need spindle work, but you may be looking for a new hub to boot. Then can get pretty loose and sloppy before they reach a point where coming apart becomes any kind of risk. As long as the rollers keep rolling, you wont damage anything.
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« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2011, 11:11:07 AM »

It's actually quite common for "automotive" bearings to be unique to a manufacturer, and not be a common specification.  I've seen that a lot on different things, VW comes to mind inside their gearbox.

It's not surprising to me at all that some things are OEM specific. 

Brian
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« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2011, 06:50:19 PM »

It's actually quite common for "automotive" bearings to be unique to a manufacturer, and not be a common specification.  I've seen that a lot on different things, VW comes to mind inside their gearbox.

It's not surprising to me at all that some things are OEM specific. 

Brian

Ahh the vw front pinion bearing- ring nut, and 4-bolt style. I see you have an old formula ford!
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« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2011, 08:31:00 PM »

http://www.interchangeinc.com/

http://www.interchangeinc.com/seals.html

Nearly 300,000 part numbers listed for more than 10,000 seals and O-rings from over 1,900 OEMs and manufacturers. Also features USA federal stock numbers and rare, hard-to-find parts.

http://www.interchangeinc.com/bearings.html

References over 470,000 part numbers by specification and design in more than 25,000 categorized groups for various ball bearings, straight, tapered, and spherical roller bearings. More than 1,150 OEMs and manufacturers are represented.

http://www.timken.com/zh-cn/products/Documents/BearingInterchangeGuide7536.pdf

If you have the MB part # one of these interchange guides should be able to cross reference the bearing.
IBI.(International Bearing Interchange) and
ISI.(International Seal Interchange) is an invaluable resource.
When I worked in the industry I had them and solved seal and bearing dilemmas for LeBherr (German HEQ),Komatsu (Japanese HEQ), Poclain (French HEQ).
The Timken pdf lists for Mercedes.
There has to be a bearing supply that has these books,data discs.
Good luck.
On rotating the bearing hub to the tag....uh..no...what if all the rollers fall out of the cage....what if one roller falls out.....
I would find a major bearing supplier.
PS if the US Govt ever bought a NeoPlan (like yours),then there should be an FSN for that bearing and seal.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2011, 08:40:48 PM by eagle19952 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: October 14, 2011, 07:39:59 PM »

Just a quick update here.  We are in Atlanta tonight, having made it around 400 miles since starting this thread with no detectable change in hub temperatures, noise, end play (axial runout), or "feel" of the bearing as I spin the wheel.

I have just 110 miles to go to make it to Choo Choo.  I will be coming mostly up US-41, as I have been keeping my speed down below 50 at all times.

I still don't have price and delivery on the OEM bearings from my supplier in the UK, so if Joel can get me in first thing Monday I think we'll pull the bad ones and see if we can find any numbers to cross-reference with the above resources.

Is there a good bearing shop in the Chattanooga area, or are we looking at having to go to Knoxville or Atlanta for these?

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey/BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #28 on: October 14, 2011, 07:55:13 PM »

I would start here:
Motion Industries Inc
3740 Powers Ct # 400
Chattanooga, TN 37416-3671
(423) 490-0852 ‎

Then here:
Dalton Bearing Services‎
601 South Glenwood Avenue
Dalton, GA 30721
(706) 278-2804
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« Reply #29 on: October 14, 2011, 08:09:14 PM »

Sean,

Here are SKF's USA phone numbers if you need them.

http://www.skf.com/portal/skf_us/home/contactus?contentId=055996&lang=en

Nick-
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« Reply #30 on: October 15, 2011, 11:51:56 AM »

The guys working the phones and counter here have been VERY helpful, Motion will move parts between stores and can check inventory in every store,

3877 NORTH PALAFOX STREET
PENSACOLA, FL 32505
Phone: (850) 433-0021
Fax: (850) 432-8092
mike.mclamb@motion-ind.com


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I would start here:
Motion Industries Inc
3740 Powers Ct # 400
Chattanooga, TN 37416-3671
(423) 490-0852 ‎

Then here:
Dalton Bearing Services‎
601 South Glenwood Avenue
Dalton, GA 30721
(706) 278-2804

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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2011, 07:50:01 AM »

Sean
I found a couple of bearings and seals I got from Neopart a couple years ago. I sent you an email with both the Neo# and the SKF#.
I am thinking these are for drive axle but cannot remember. They were for a Megaliner or George's Cityliner or whatever it was he had. If you need em' they are yours.
Justin
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« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2011, 05:14:45 PM »

and the results  of all these efforts were?

did u get to enjoy the rally, did u make it there, did Joel get the bearings checked/fixed?  Did you have to get them from europe?

so what happened?  Wink
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« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2011, 11:05:46 PM »

and the results  of all these efforts were?

did u get to enjoy the rally, did u make it there, did Joel get the bearings checked/fixed?  Did you have to get them from europe?

so what happened?  Wink

Tom -

Sean did make it to the rally - he parked next to Technomadia (Chris & Cherie) - there's a photo of his coach in the rally photos thread.

I suspect since the rally's wound down, Choo Choo's busy trying to solve the problem. . .

Like you, I'm waiting to read more about this latest saga from BusNut Extraordinaire too!

FWIW & HTH. . .

 Wink

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« Reply #34 on: October 19, 2011, 12:14:59 PM »

Sorry for the delay, folks.  I have been super busy since Atlanta and have not had enough free time to post.

Most of the rest of the saga is detailed in my latest blog post, along with a brief report from the rally, here:
http://ourodyssey.blogspot.com/2011/10/waiting-to-get-my-bearings-in.html

As I suspected, and notwithstanding several comments here to the contrary, the bearings are not available in North America.  They do not cross to anything domestic.  More than one bearing house told me they could get the direct replacements, but they would have to come from overseas.  As a product importation, they would be subject to duty and likely a three or four day delay in US customs.  One supplier said a $40 bearing could easily become a $400 bearing that way.

On top of that, the outer bearing was a Japanese item from Koyo, and it is so old that Koyo no longer has it in their computer nor do they have a spec sheet.  Presumably Mercedes switched suppliers at some point, and I will be interested in seeing if the replacement item is a FAG, who made the inner bearing.

I ended up ordering two bearing sets and four seals from my supplier in the UK.  He should have them tomorrow and will overnight them to me on DHL.  Unless they get hung up in customs I should have them Friday.  The bearing sets were around $600 for the pair and the seals are another $50 or so, before shipping.  I am guessing another $200 for shipping making the parts alone just shy of a "bus unit."  I'm going to have Joel repack the other three, and if he finds a marginal one we will have a replacement on hand.  In either case I will end up with a serviceable spare.

Thanks for all the help.  I'll be posting the progress pictures on the blog once we have the parts.


-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2011, 01:03:33 PM »

You may have answered this in the past but I couldn't find it.

With all that you have been through with Odyssey, do you have any regrets over your choice of bus, and would you do it again?  Just curious if the end product is worth it to you.
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« Reply #36 on: October 19, 2011, 05:08:10 PM »

You may have answered this in the past but I couldn't find it.

With all that you have been through with Odyssey, do you have any regrets over your choice of bus, and would you do it again?  Just curious if the end product is worth it to you.

I have the same question.....

TOM
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