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Author Topic: Lug Nuts - Pics of my Nuts  (Read 6694 times)
DavidInWilmNC
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« on: October 13, 2006, 05:21:37 PM »

I seem to remember reading that some MCI's, particularly those for Trailways, had both hub piloted and stud piloted nuts on the front wheels.  My MC-8 is one of those.  While I know that the two are not interchangeable, there must be some reason for it.  I'd really like to know why this was done if anybody has a clue.  I'll be ordering some new correct ones next time I order bus parts.

David
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 10:36:07 AM by DavidInWilmNC » Logged
NJT5047
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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2006, 07:02:46 PM »

Hi David,
Very interesting question...never heard of such.   Are you saying that you have two different styles of lugnuts on the front wheels?
An upside to my hub-piloted wheels is I've got all RH studs on my MC9...that's cool.   I suppose that some stud-piloted wheels are all RH too?
I'm interested in the rationale for your lugnut style.
JR
   
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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Dallas
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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2006, 07:12:34 PM »

Dave,
They can only have one type of lug nut for each type of wheel.

There are not suppose to be both kinds on one wheel. That can get you really hurt! Really fast!

And believe me, it is absolutely NO fun to have one of your steering tires pass you as you go down the road.
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larryh
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« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2006, 11:36:40 AM »

Dave

If you have two different styles on your bus somebody didn't have the right one in stock and changed it over but it isn't a good practice get the originals should be non piloted for your unit.

LarryH
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« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2006, 01:21:47 PM »

I think I know what your talking about. I bought a MC8 back in '96 that was an ex Canadian hound. Every other lug nut was different on the front axle. The stud and thread was the same. It was like a big washer effect. I took those off and put regular lug nuts like the others because chrome  lug covers would not fit on the bigger lugs. The only bus I evere had that had those.
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gumpy
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« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2006, 01:32:42 PM »

No, that's not mecessrily true. This was done, and is quite common.

The MC8 I originally bought was this way. It had tapered nuts on every other stud, and flat nuts on the remaining.

The tapered nuts are used to align the wheel, and the flat nuts provide maximum strain relief against the wheel due the large flange on the nut.
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Craig Shepard
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Dallas
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« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2006, 01:38:56 PM »

No, that's not mecessrily true. This was done, and is quite common.

The MC8 I originally bought was this way. It had tapered nuts on every other stud, and flat nuts on the remaining.

The tapered nuts are used to align the wheel, and the flat nuts provide maximum strain relief against the wheel due the large flange on the nut.

Well,
I'll be darned.

Whudda thunk!
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tekebird
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« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2006, 05:52:07 PM »

are the stud holes in the wheels different?

Stud piloted vs hub piloted stud hole alternating?

Usu==ing a hub piloted lug nut on a stud piloted hub would not leave alot of contact area between the wheel and lug nuit...thus would be likely to loosen I would think.

Sounds to me like some abomination.
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NJT5047
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2006, 06:06:45 PM »

Are the "flat" lugs set over a "countersunk" hole?   Typically Budd wheels use an automotive style lugnut (on the front...the rear is a little more complicated)....did they install a hub piloted lugnut on the countersunk hole or is the wheel flat where the flat nut goes?
Could one retrofit Budd style lugnuts on all lugs?  Similar to a truck...or older bus.
Beatenbo, covers for the 1.5" transit lugnuts (hub piloted) are available...I've got a bagfull of the things and never installed them.   I bought high hats, caps, and lug covers...afraid to install the lugnut covers because I seem to have the wheels (or wheel) off for some reason too frequently.  Looks like they'll be damaged by removing them once in place.
Where the large lugnuts you refer to 1.5"?   
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

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DavidInWilmNC
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« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 09:45:31 AM »

Ok, so hopefully these pics of my nuts will help.   Wink 
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DavidInWilmNC
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« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2006, 09:48:59 AM »

Here are the other pics.  Now, I may drive around with loose tag nuts, but I DO have the correct ones in the front!  From what I've read, some companies specified these non-standard nuts on their buses.  For whatever reason, they saw the 'need for better lug nuts' in that the hub-piloted look-alikes supposedly give better clamping for dealing with side-to-side forces (typically encountered only on the front). 

David
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NJT5047
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« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2006, 10:36:18 AM »


Ok, so hopefully these pics of my nuts will help. Wink

David, you got funny looking nuts man.    Wink   As Dallas said...who'da thunk it.
They have properties of both Budd and flange nuts.   Obviously made for Budd wheels.
One must wonder why they stopped doing the lugnuts that way? 
Interesting.
JR
BTW, those flanged nuts don't look like hub piloted nuts on the flat.  Hub piloted nuts are totally flat with a locking mechanism built into the two piece washer.  The hub centers the wheel...the lugnuts and studs just hold it on.   




 
« Last Edit: October 15, 2006, 10:39:53 AM by NJT5047 » Logged

JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2006, 10:52:01 AM »

If you ever change those lug nuts be sure you use the tapered nuts.  As the new nuts with a washer does not have the taper to them that yours do.
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Stan
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2006, 11:55:55 AM »

I am sure some engineer had a good idea but when I look at the picture of your combination nuts they don't make sense. The nut has two seating surfaces; one on the flat and one on the taper. Even if the nuts and wheels are precision machined you will not get a clamping force on both. Either the taper will seat first or the flat will seat first. The rust on your nut looks like neither was seated properly. Examine your nuts carefully and see if you can determine where the clamping force is. There should be a continuous ring with no rust on both the nut and wheel .
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DavidInWilmNC
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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2006, 12:31:26 PM »

I am sure some engineer had a good idea but when I look at the picture of your combination nuts they don't make sense. The nut has two seating surfaces; one on the flat and one on the taper. Even if the nuts and wheels are precision machined you will not get a clamping force on both. Either the taper will seat first or the flat will seat first. The rust on your nut looks like neither was seated properly. Examine your nuts carefully and see if you can determine where the clamping force is. There should be a continuous ring with no rust on both the nut and wheel .

Stan,
The clamping section is the outside ring; the taper is slightly shallower than the standard nut.  I don't know about not being seated properly, but those were the only two I could remove.  I used a 4' cheater bar and put my 170 lbs on it and couldn't budge them, so they were fairly tight.  The part in bold above is kinda scarey!

David
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larryh
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2006, 02:23:38 PM »

Here I am back again. In working as a mechanic over 40 years I have seen our pig tractors(piggy back trailers loaded on railway cars) start popping lug nuts off like a machine gun from items very similar to your nuts.

It was/ is not uncommon before they started weighing loaded railroad car, to have in excess of 130,000 per trailer which put and undo strain on front axle nuts and if one nut was loose they would pop em all off and a hell of a mess to repair.

If the wheel is standard budd wheel I would use standard budd nuts their prettier than yours.

I have never seen or heard what you describe I would love to see what dot guys had to say about this.

LarryH
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Ace
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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2006, 02:29:08 PM »

Speaking of Lug Nuts, what is the proper torque value for Alcoa aluminum wheels. I have looked thru the manual and have not been able to find the information.

Also I'm looking at a Tire Pressure Monitor made and sold by Doran. Has anyone else used this system and are there any other systems comparible that you might recommend? Of course, The Doran looks like it might be the top of the line according to thier web site comparisons but actuall user info is greatly appreciated!

Thanks...
Ace

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Ace
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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2006, 02:59:46 PM »

Never mind on the torque values. Dallas was kind enough to send me the whole Alcoa manual and it has all the information I need!

Thanks Dallas....


Ace
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NJT5047
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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2006, 04:23:44 PM »

Ace, have you talked to Jack Conrad?  He's got some sort of unit that monitors the coach and toad.   Has nice easy to read screen.
JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
JackConrad
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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2006, 04:27:13 PM »

Ace,
    We have the Doran Pressure Pro on our coach.  We also monitor our toad. We are very happy with the system. Price seems to be comparable with other systems and no installation cost. (Smart Tire requires demounting tires to install sensors). When towing our golf cart trailer, we remove front tire sensors from the front wheels of our Grand Cherokee and install them on the trailer.  Jim Shepherd will be selling them at our rally or you can reach him at www.rvsafetysystems.com.  Jack
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« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2006, 04:43:34 PM »

Jack, thanks for the referral.  I can always use the business <grin>.

Since the thread is hijacked a bit anyway, on a somewhat related subject, does anyone know a good source for the lug nut covers and hub caps for Alcoa wheels?
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Jim Shepherd
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Ace
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« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2006, 04:49:51 PM »

JR Thanks and I see those have come forth and answered!  Cheesy

Thanks Jack!

Jim I didn't know you were a dealer for Doran and it's nice to know that someone we know is! Ok my next question. I saw the pricing on THIER web site. What is yours? You can email me if need be. I'm not sure I want to wait until the rally to purchase one or before, then again, if there is a rally special I may have to wait!  Wink

Ace
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pete81eaglefanasty
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« Reply #22 on: October 15, 2006, 04:56:42 PM »

 I also have the Doran Pressure Pro. It went off twice this year on my trip. once on the right rear dual, a loose valve stem. the other on my jeep, right rear, all i could find was a loose sensor. but it sure let's you know when they are low. best thing I bought this year.
I got them from Mr Safetyman. Jim Shepherd


        Pete

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2006, 05:33:34 PM »

Hi Ace.  The standard price for Doran/Pressure Pro systems is $190 for the console and $50 per tire.  The margin for dealers is very low, so I don't think you will see "specials".    I don't charge shipping and phone or e-store orders don't have tax charges.

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Jim Shepherd
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Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #24 on: October 15, 2006, 06:31:42 PM »

Speaking of Lug Nuts, what is the proper torque value for Alcoa aluminum wheels. I have looked thru the manual and have not been able to find the information.

Ace,
Alcoa aluminum wheels torque at "450 lbs"
Connel
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« Reply #25 on: October 15, 2006, 07:02:45 PM »

Jim, what sort of coax or wiring does the Doran midship antenna consist of?  I reckon that would be necessary on a 40' coach.
Is it a "repeater" or an antenna proper? 
About what is the diameter of the transmitters?  My inner duals are tight.  Real trick to air them up. 
Thanks, JR
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

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« Reply #26 on: October 15, 2006, 08:11:19 PM »

WEll GUYS back to the subject of your nuts!!!! on older coaches, the stud piloted nut style would cause the wheel to crack because of the inherent wedge design, hence the alternating of the flat nut and the wedge style of stud piloted!!
make sense Huh
Les R (rebuilt 871 will be in soon [i hope])
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Beatenbo
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« Reply #27 on: October 15, 2006, 08:29:37 PM »

Dave, Just like the ones on the MC 8 I had. Just take those washe rlooking or flat seat things and throw them in the trash and put regular nuts like on the right of pic and don't worry about it. I've had 10 buses and only one hound from Canada came like that. As far as I can see just another bright idea someone came up with. I got about a million or so miles in the last 35 years and never had a minute trouble from the standard lugs.
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tekebird
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« Reply #28 on: October 15, 2006, 09:08:11 PM »

doesn't make sence to me.

whether there are 5 or 10 stud piloted tapered lug nuts.....if crackign was an issue it would still be there.

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Ace
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« Reply #29 on: October 16, 2006, 05:15:47 AM »

Dallas emailed me the Alcoa Aluminum Wheel Manual whichis 56 pages long and has a LOT of information regarding lug nuts of all types and maintenence of wheels. It's in PDF format and maybe he can post it for all to have a copy of. I can't seem to be able to do it.

Ace
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2006, 06:16:34 AM »

Sorry that we have two subjects in this thread.

JR, the hard wired antenna uses a cable and connector that looks like your typical CB cable on one end and a connector on the other end that connects where the small "rubber ducky" cable connects on the console.  The cable is 35 feet.  Doran also has a repeater that can be mounted in the rear part of the bus.  It does not have a cable, but does require 12 volts.  I do not need an antenna in my 40 foot Eagle.  I sell perhaps 1 antenna for each 5-10 units. 

The sensor is about 1 inch in diameter and 1 inch tall.  I have not run into a case where they can't be installed because of space.  Jack said he had to remove the outer wheel to install his unit on the inner dual.  Some customers install extensions to bring the sensor to the outside.  On my Eagle, I can get my hand between the tires and remove the sensor to add air.
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Jim Shepherd
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’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #31 on: October 16, 2006, 06:35:31 AM »

Jim,
   We get our nut covers and hub covers at 75 Chrome Shop located at the Wildwood exit on I-75 in Florida. Flying J also carries them as well as most truck stops. We went with the chrome plated plastic nut covers because they will never rust.

JR,
  When we installed our Pressure Pro, we did not use the optional antenna. Occasionally, we would temporarily loose the signal from 1 or 2 of the rear bus tires or toad tires. We added the optional antenna and have not had that problem re-occur. The optional antenna has a 40' coax that connects tpo the monitor on the dash.
  The only other problem we have had is the sensitivity of the unit. We aired all of our toad tires to 30 PSI in Florida with an ambient temperature of 90 degrees. Up here in NC, the temp dropped into the 30s, tire pressures dropped to 27 PSI and alarm went off. We simply unplugged the monitor. We have 2 options: 1. remove the sensor, wait 1 minute and re-install, it will now consider 27 PSI as base pressure or 2. add air to bring pressure to 30 PSI.
    The sensors will fit in the openings in the Alcoa wheels, but it is extremely difficult to air either dual without removing the outside dual.  We plan to add extensions to inside duals and put short, straight valve stems on the outside duals.  Jack
« Last Edit: October 16, 2006, 06:45:34 AM by JackConrad » Logged

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« Reply #32 on: October 16, 2006, 07:11:55 AM »

Jim, Jack is absolutely right- the chrome plated plastic is the way to go on the lug covers. I used  Alcoa kits, they come with lug caps and hub covers. I bought them new on ebay.They are picey to purchace retail. I had tried several different types, but (IMO) the Alcoas seeem the best. You can click on my profile to see them. HTH, Chuck
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