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Author Topic: steep hills and no jake break??  (Read 16274 times)
TomC
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« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2011, 07:30:17 AM »

Anti-lock brakes will NOT prevent you from overheating brakes.  They only prevent a wheel lockup in a skid.  In this day and age, everyone should have a Jake brake.  Especially if you're coming west through the Rockies.  I know that most of the big trucks have Jake brakes as standard equipment.  Even Cummins ISC 8.3 and ISL 8.9 liter have the option of Jake Brakes.  Cummins little ISB 6.7 liter has a turbo brake-meaning the turbo vanes switch to rev up the turbo and cram more air into the cylinders for a mild Jake brake effect-it is very affective on less then 26,000gvw trucks.  Good Luck, TomC
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belfert
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« Reply #46 on: November 03, 2011, 10:55:40 AM »

Yes, Jake brakes are great to have, but they don't help one bit on any of the medium steep hills out west where they are prohibited by law.  I will admit I broke the law and used my Jake brake anyhow.  I do have a muffler and I like to have my service brakes cool in case I need them.  There was one grade last month were I was almost going too slow, but you really can't go too slow downhill.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
Rick59-4104
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« Reply #47 on: November 03, 2011, 11:52:45 AM »

 Here in the Ozarks we do have several 7% to 8% grades, every day I drive a 2 lane state highway where the grade is not marked but you drop a little over 1200 feet vertical in about 2 miles.

 I was on a local Fire Department Rescue team that worked a passenger bus wreck on the mountain south of Jasper Arkansas in 1980 that killed more than 20 people, the bus lost brakes about 2/3rds of the way down the mountain at the time no run-away hill ramp.

 My approach to descending a grade with a manual transmission is very different than my approach to descending with an automatic transmission with no Jake.

  I can descend the mountain with my 4104 with the 4 speed Splicer in 1st gear flashers going and only touch my brakes about 4 times on the way down. I always keep my hand on the shift lever to prevent the transmission from jumping out of gear. It never has but it could be bad news to have a Splicer in neutral while rolling down a grade. I have owned trucks with Allisons and it is my experience with them that trying to go too slow by downshifting into TOO LOW a gear and trying to maintain too low a speed on the first few miles of a grade can actually lead to more brake fade on the lower part of the grades than dropping just 1 or 2 gears (with an automatic) and descending at a slightly higher speed and not braking as much. I always try to "save" my  brakes as much as I can on the first 50% or so of the grade so I will have cooler brakes on the lower end of the grade.

 Years ago (I was 17) I had a 1947 1 1/2 ton Ford truck with mechanical brakes (you push the pedal and a rod connected to a wedge applys brake pressure to the drums) and hauled hardwood logs down this grade, that was fun at the time but I would not do it today for any amount of money.


This can be where a CB radio and talking to truckers about a grade before you get to it can be a big help. If you have a bus with no Jake and an automatic the advice the truckers give you might not be what you want to do as they probably have a manual transmission. Just my 2 cents worth........


Rick
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 11:57:56 AM by Rick59-4104 » Logged

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RJ
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« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2011, 12:52:21 AM »

Yes, Jake brakes are great to have, but they don't help one bit on any of the medium steep hills out west where they are prohibited by law. 

Brian -

Where did you see that Jakes are prohibited?

 Huh
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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2011, 06:29:20 AM »

On I-80 coming westbound into Salt Lake City there is a long grade and engine brakes are prohibited.  Interstates typically don't have grades nearly as steep as other roads, but I have smelled plenty of burning brakes coming from other vehicles on this grade.  I'm thinking there is at least one other stretch where engine brakes are prohibited.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
luvrbus
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« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2011, 06:43:19 AM »

The last I read there was 10 states that prohibit engine brakes in a Village or City limits,NM,OK,OR,PA,UT,WV,WV,KS,CA and 1 other I forgot

good luck
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« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2011, 07:11:51 AM »

Coaches with proper mufflers are not going to attract anyone's attention with the engine brake purring.

Trucks with straight pipes, on the other hand...

In these areas, get the transmission down into the right gear to help blend the package, so you may be using transmission and partial engine brake, if the slope allows.

Engine brake off before you hit the bottom of the exit ramp, the city cops will hang at the end of the ramp and nail the ones jaking all the way down to a stop.

Our brakes do need some sort of regular workout too for good lining/drum health.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Ed Hackenbruch
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« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2011, 08:38:03 AM »

Usually, but not always, what you see is the signs say no unmuffled jakes, meaning no jakes running thru straight pipes. If you have mufflers on your exhaust you can still use your jakes. Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: November 04, 2011, 10:14:36 AM »

I've personally never seen a sign that says unmuffled engine brakes restricted.  I'm sure they exist, but I just haven't seen one.  Every one I have seen says engine brakes or Jake brakes prohibited.  (Jake brakes is rare because the company lawyer will contact the owner of the sign to take off Jake Brake.)

I have attached a photo of the sign on I80 in Utah prohibiting engine brakes.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #54 on: November 04, 2011, 10:26:14 AM »

It's all about the noise as I'm sure you have heard in trucks.  If you have a muffler, there will not be the characteristic clatter, so I would not worry about it.
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« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2011, 11:08:29 AM »

Brian, why worry about the ticket?   I have never heard of a bus owner getting a ticket for running his jakes.

Coming down the pass not using jakes vs using the jakes,  I would risk the ticket every time.  If you have a muffler and with most designs the outlet of the muffler is pointed to the ground.   The noise is greatly reduced vs truckers with open stacks.   
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belfert
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« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2011, 12:16:05 PM »

I always run my Jake brake on that grade regardless of the sign.  I do have a working muffler.  I've never been worried about a ticket.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
niles500
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« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2011, 11:02:56 PM »

I personally I have never heard (ever) of a person being cited for running jakes and being found guilty in court - If you've paid a ticket and not fought it shame on you - factory installed jakes are a "safety device" no different than rear view mirrors, and are NEVER to be considered a nuisance - Yes I have traveled thoroughly throughout NA and have seen all the signs both muffled and outright bans - I usually turn my jakes on to see if anyone will pull me over - never been stopped and would easily win in court - There is a fair amount of case law out there that supports my opinion and if any of you ever find yourself defending the use of your jakes please contact me and I will help you as best I can - leave it up to the government to outlaw safety devices and then fine you for not using your jakes -  FWIW
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belfert
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« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2011, 06:34:21 AM »

I would probably just pay a ticket if I got one as traveling from Minnesota to Utah for a court date would be very expensive.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
John316
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« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2011, 08:49:00 AM »

When it comes to hills and jakes, often I choose safety.

Dropping into SLC, we will run the jakes. That said, we are quieter running jakes, then some trucks with straight pipes.

I would probably just pay a ticket if I got one as traveling from Minnesota to Utah for a court date would be very expensive.

You have to watch the "just pay the ticket" stuff. In NC, if you have an excessive speeding ticket (most of us would never have that issue) then you HAVE to appear in court, no matter where you are from. We have a friend who is a trooper in NC, and he says people just figure they can pay the ticket and be done (again, high speed, not just a regular ticket). If the folks don't show up in court, they are barred from driving on any state/city roads. Of course, that is different then a minor jakes/no jakes, but still a thought.

John
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