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Author Topic: Just broke down on I-95 S at the Florida/Georgia Border Need Advice  (Read 5067 times)
Ace
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2011, 06:55:11 AM »

If have you agree with easy is better. If I push mine (8v92) up around 75-80 the temps will rise to 200+. If I stay around 65-70, it wil run all day long at 190-195.
Keep in mind that when your making HP, you're going to see some added heat.
I think mine will shut down at 210. Don't want to find out so when I see 200+ 1 or 2, I ease off the pedal.
At times, I do wish I could push it 75+ for longer than I do.
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Ace Rossi
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2011, 07:11:32 AM »

The 2 strokes cool best between 1600 and 1800 rpm, the good thing about the modern 4 strokes you can up the turbo boost and adjust the cooling on one it will remove the heat through the exhaust were the older 2 stroke engines have to do it with water and air only

good luck
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2011, 09:56:01 AM »

Artvonne and Prevosman

Just to clarify, that 330 crashed was in direct law - in other words, the computers were moving the controls in DIRECT relationship to the sidestick displacement, as in manual flight in any non computer a/c.  Unfortunately, the crew failed to realize they originally placed the a/c  in a deep stall and the only way out is to start flying again by shoving the nose down and decreasing the angle of attack.  Once flying, then pull back. It was a clear case of forgetting the basics with horrible consequences. Stall and spin recovery - lesson plan 5 - private license circa 1970.
The 330 is almost idiot proof - but not completely. Luckily, I was not enough of an idiot to be bitten in the butt by it -  in over  3000+ hours I flew them.

Rob
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technomadia
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2011, 10:52:16 AM »

As already posted, temp gages are worthless until observed in normal operation. My temp gage reads  around 140* just below the green band when the engine is actually  running around 180* as measured by IR gage.

I've been wondering...  Where on the engine should I be checking the temperature with the IR thermometer?  It varies so much.

The 8V71 in our 4106 seems to run just under 190 on the dash gauge, and it climbs to just over 200 when climbing.  But I have no idea how closely calibrated this is to the actual readings on the engine.

My V730 oil temp gage does the same thing, shows around 230-240* when it is actually around 200*.

Our V730 doesn't have a temperature gauge.  Where on it should I be checking it with the IR thermometer?  And what is considered "normal" and "too hot"Huh

Thanks!

   - Chris
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2011, 11:14:59 AM »

water temp you can shoot with an IR gun on the thermostat housing.  Oil temp  you can shoot with the IR gun on the oil pan or on the oil filter itself.  i would be happy with anything around 220 on the pan after a decent run, not over 250 and not under 200.  You want the oil to be hot enough to keep condensation out.  The bearings see oil after it goes through the oil cooler, which will try to bring the oil to the same temp as the coolant.  The oil in the pan is about as hot as the oil gets, except when it is actually in the bearings, of  course.  If I where going to install an oil temp gauge on an engine I would drill and tap the oil filter head or put it in the block where the flow of oil into the main gallery from the oil cooler is.  Both are too much work for me...

Brian
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2011, 12:28:24 PM »

I check with the IR right next to the heat sender and for the trans at both the oil and coolant inlet and outlet hose connections. This sure gives me peace of mind.

I also agree with the speed thing, I notice a big difference in heat over 65 mph.

Len,
I thought of that but not sure how to get them matched up. Will have to do some research for sure.

Chris,
My V730 book says 160* is normal but my gage shows that two minutes after I start the engine and my IR thermometer shows that the gage  isn't correct. The trans dome shows 200-210* for 99% of the time. Remember that most IR thermos should be held about 8" from the surface measured and aren't accurate on very shiny surfaces.
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2011, 12:59:52 PM »

Artvonne and Prevosman

Just to clarify, that 330 crashed was in direct law -
Rob

  I cannot question on your experience, but I can say that everything I have read, from various aviation forums, to various aviation magazines, all say the same thing, that the aircraft CAN NOT be over controlled beyond what is programmed into the flight computers. That the aircraft likely stalled due to icing of the pitot system, and without that information the autopilot via the computers are what put the circumstances of the disaster into play. The airplane fell out of the sky into a high speed dive, and the controls could not have been pulled hard enough to pull out of a dive that would exceed design limitations of the aircraft.

  In any other aircraft, from a Cessna 172, to a 747, a pilot could, if desired, put the plane into a configuration that would tear off the wings. The Airbus wont allow it, and that particular aircraft is likely sitting somewhere on the bottom of the atlantic because of that very fact. And that fact is that engineers decided to take control away from pilots to protect the plane from hurting itself. Part of that decision came from the airbus accident in New York, when it was discovered the pilots were a bit to judicious with the rudder pedals leading to failure of the rudder. So rather than fix the rudder, they took control away from the pilots happy feet.

  Yes, an emergency override that would allow the engine to be started after mechanical fault would be a good idea. A better idea would be for pilots to watch their gauges and respond to warnings rather than ignore them until they escalate into failures and emergencies. It is that failure to notice anything and the failure to react to it when it becomes blatantly obvious, that has led manufactures to install safety protection systems. Its not just women who ignore the flashing red light saying "OIL - OIL - OIL", while vast plumes of smoke exit the rear of the car while they blissfully along, unaware. I was reading a repair invoice for a car that came into the shop on the back of a wrecker. "owner said the car heater stopped making heat, and shortly afterwards the engine coolant light came on. A while later the car started slowing down and then jerked toa stop with load noises coming from the engine". Thats why your Bus has alarmstats to shut it down, because they hire idiots to drive them that wont pull over and stop until the engine is gone.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2011, 02:23:56 PM »

Artvonne and Prevosman

Just to clarify, that 330 crashed was in direct law - in other words, the computers were moving the controls in DIRECT relationship to the sidestick displacement, as in manual flight in any non computer a/c.  Unfortunately, the crew failed to realize they originally placed the a/c  in a deep stall and the only way out is to start flying again by shoving the nose down and decreasing the angle of attack.  Once flying, then pull back. It was a clear case of forgetting the basics with horrible consequences. Stall and spin recovery - lesson plan 5 - private license circa 1970.
The 330 is almost idiot proof - but not completely. Luckily, I was not enough of an idiot to be bitten in the butt by it -  in over  3000+ hours I flew them.

Rob

Rob,

That is scary because the Colgan Regional that crashed on an approach into BUF had the exact same pilot imputs. He pulled on the yoke when he got the stick pusher, went into a spin and 51 people died. Nobody is teaching or learning the basics apparently.
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Jon Wehrenberg
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« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 11:10:59 PM »

".....the aircraft CAN NOT be over controlled beyond what is programmed into the flight computers. That the aircraft likely stalled due to icing of the pitot system, and without that information the autopilot via the computers are what put the circumstances of the disaster into play. The airplane fell out of the sky into a high speed dive, and the controls could not have been pulled hard enough to pull out of a dive that would exceed design limitations of the aircraft."

Paul, this is incorrect. 

The 330 flight control logic has 3 modes- normal law, where the computers provide all the protection, alternate law, which is a degraded mode but still provides some protection and direct law, which provides none.  It is as if you have a cable connected to the control surfaces.  It is very easy to overstress the airframe in this mode - if you are flying and not stalled. They were stalled.
 
"....various aviation forums, to various aviation magazines, all say the same thing..."

I read some of these forums and it really amazes me what drivel floats around in hyperspace as "truth", and then gets transposed to print media as gospel.


The autopilot and auto thrust self disengaged due to protection built in because of erroneous data inputs from the pitot tubes icing up. At taht poin they were still flying. What followed after, was the pilot manually stalling the aircraft and unable to recover. 

From the accident report - parentheses are mine
After the autopilot disengagement:
* the airplane climbed to 38,000 ft, (this was a zoom climb at a rate exceeding 7000 feet per minute.)
* the stall warning was triggered and the airplane stalled,
* the inputs made by the PF were mainly nose-up, (note PF stands for pilot flying)
* the descent lasted 3 min 30, during which the airplane remained stalled. The angle of attack increased and remained above 35 degrees,
* the engines were operating and always responded to crew commands.

- The last recorded values were a pitch attitude of 16.2 degrees nose-up, a roll angle of 5.3 degrees left and a vertical speed of -10,912 ft/min.

Note the aircraft was falling nose up -16 degrees up - and the angle of attack was 35+degrees.  Most aircraft stall at 14 to 15 degrees angle of attack- the difference between the angle of the wing chord and the angle of the airflow hitting the wing.  The aircraft was falling like a flat plate at almost 11000 feet per minute. They were not diving , the nose was pointed up the whole time from 38000 feet  to impact. They were doing exactly the wrong thing - pulling back.
 
The other Airbus accident of which you spoke (shortly after 9/11) was caused by overactive feet, but there never was any downgrading of the force the pedals could exert in the A300, A330 or A340 or any other heavy jets. We were specifically cautioned and trained NOT to correct roll with our feet - that still holds true in all modern transport category airplanes Airbus or Boeing/Douglas.

Jon:

"He pulled on the yoke when he got the stick pusher, went into a spin and 51 people died. Nobody is teaching or learning the basics apparently." 

The basics are still being taught but not practiced nearly enough, whether it be due to budget constraints or corner cutting.
 

I'd better stop this before I'm declared off topic.  I  can't stand myths being perpetuated about a great airplane.  Ask Sully what he thinks of Airbus by the way.  They all fly the same.

Rob
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« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 11:52:29 PM »

  Im sorry, but you are surmising things that are simply unknown, as no flight data recorder was ever recovered. And while I will admit there is a great amount of hyperbole on internet forums, I trust magazines such as AOPA, and sites such as the FAA and NTSB, and I read them, and the opinions they present. There is a great deal of information dealing with airbus nullifying control inputs to protect structural integrity, and its well documented. To have people believe that well trained international airline pilots with thousands of hours of experience would hold an airplane in a stall condition while remaining almost wings level, for more than three minutes, while watching the altimeter unwind at over 10,000 feet per minute, while a stall warning horn blares loudly in the cockpit, and do absolutely nothing, is ludicrous. Three minutes is darn near an eternity when your sitting there watching your aircraft malfunction. For the French Government to admit the pilots made any attempt to fly the plane, shows they were determined to save it. Especially when anyone with any knowledge of said events knows the aircraft was under full autopilot control previous to any trouble. Something went wrong, they deactivated the AP, took control in a desperate attempt to salvage it, and couldnt.
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2011, 07:15:58 AM »

  Im sorry, but you are surmising things that are simply unknown, as no flight data recorder was ever recovered.


Flight 447's recorder? Brought up in May. Data downloaded.
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JackConrad
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2011, 08:41:31 AM »

OK, Enough about aircraft.  Let's stick to the OP's subject.  Your friendly moderator
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2011, 08:48:01 AM »

Wow Jack you never heard of the Air  "BUS" they lost me yesterday lol
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« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2011, 07:56:16 AM »

Scott,
Now that you have safely"landed"( sorry i just could not help myself) in Apopka, any updates on what was / is causing the problem. Is Apopka going to be your base for a while? I had a few days off or might have been able to help out on 95 as i run  to Miami, over to Immokalee to  load then up 29 to 27 to haines city then I4 to 95 and back up to  New jersey on a weekly run. There is always one of us somewhere to try to help out , as you know first hand from talking to Mr Jack . Good Luck  your in good hands down there. Some time i would like to hear more about the WMO experience...............
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Scott Bennett
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2011, 11:26:59 AM »

Thanks so much for the kind offer :-) Yes, we're in Apopka now. We'll be here for just under 6 months. Headed home to Michigan for a month for Christmas, but the coach will stay put here while we drive our car up to Michigan. I really haven't yet determined what went wrong. Here's the scenario:

1. Driving in Florida along I-95 South 86 degree temps and driving around 70-72 MPH
2. Dash temp gauge reads just above 200 degrees, overheat indicator comes on, engine shuts down.
3. Coast into a weigh station, try to restart, no click, no turning over, nothing when I press the starter.
4. Engine temp gauge reads 180 degrees.
5. Called Jack, per his suggestion, added 2.5 gallons of water to radiator before it overflowed.
6. Wait until motor cools down, try to restart, starts right up.
7. Drive down the road a piece but slightly slower (60-65 MPH), coach again overheats, shuts down.
8. Engine temp gauge still reads 175-180 degree. Dash gauge reads above 200.
9. Per Jack's suggestion, I disconnect shutdown wires/dash gauge/indicator wires on thermostats to stop the auto-shutdown feature. (in the middle of the road)
10. Bungee-corded the engine doors wide open (took off the pins that stop the doors from opening all the way) and drove the rest of the way (100 miles) at around 60 mph and a flat dash gauge.


I noticed that the exhaust downpipe going from the turbo to the muffler has completely come off. So the hot exhaust gases are blowing directly into the engine compartment. My guess, is that this was heating things up enough to set off the alarms. What I don't get, is why the engine gauge reads 175-180 when coach is warmed up, but the dash gauge was indicating an overheat situation. Dash gauge has always read 180 up until now. So, I will fix the exhaust and see if that solves the issue. If not, I'll replace the overheat t-stat sensors and see if that fixes it. If not, I'll drive the coach into the nearest lake and start over and see if that fixes it.  Undecided
10.
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Scott & Heather
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