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Author Topic: Installing series 50 in 102A3  (Read 2852 times)
hargreaves
1987 MCI 102A3
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« on: November 01, 2011, 10:41:03 AM »

Hi guys, I am looking for some advise. I have a 1987 MCI 102A3 with a mechanical 6V92, 740, 300 hp.3:73 gears. I get approx. 6.35 miles per gallon. What I am looking to do is put a series 50 B400 package in. Has anyone done this, or have a series 50 in their coach. I can acquire the complete transit bus to do this. It has approx. 230,000 km on the motor trans.

The question I have , is it worth it? will I gain any fuel mileage?  All input would be greatly appreciated .    Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
uncle ned
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2011, 10:54:51 AM »



Jack Campbell  and his son jerry both have a series 50 in their coach.  Jerry is a MCI and Jacks is a eagle.

I think they like the 50 very much. i believe both removed 8v92's .

 they will most likley respond also.

Wish I had waited on a series 50 to replace my 6v92 instead of a complete rebuild and 2 new heads. They just became avaliable to late for me.
Plenty of power and no heat problems.

Hard headed ken my pop in also. he is putting a 50 in a silversides.

uncle ned

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hargreaves
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2011, 11:02:44 AM »

Uncle Ned , Do you happen to know what transmissions they are running?     Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2011, 11:10:14 AM »


I don't know which one but they are different. Each coach has a different one

I think one was a world and don't know about the other one.

uncle ned
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2011, 11:20:02 AM »

You'll gain fuel mileage, but it will take you a long, lonnnnggg, lonnnnnnnnngggggggg time to see any benefit. An engine upgrade from MUI to MUI isn't cheap. An Engine upgrade from MUI to Electronic is even more expensive.
Are you gonna keep the bus 10-20 years to recoup the costs? a 1 mpg increase is not that impressive when it comes to costs. That's one of the reasons Bus manufacturers didn't embrace the change to 4 strokes a long time ago. the increased cost caused the buyers to stop and rethink replacing fleet units.

With the upgrade you might, (and I emphasize 'MIGHT'), see another mile per gallon.

How about you try putting an egg under your right foot, drive 55, or 65, and quit trying to keep up with the Mazda RX-7's when you pull away from the light?

If you'll learn that your 35,OOO pound albatross isn't going to work like a 20,000 pound class C, and drive it accordingly, you could see another 1.5 mpg. Real professional drivers, (not just the warm bodies behind the wheel put out by the schools), are always cognizant what is going on around them, whether it's traffic, tires, mirrors or engine/transmission.

One of the mods and I have been going around and around about this for the last three years... He thinks that if he can go from point A to point B and arrive an hour sooner, it's worth driving at top speed, even though his mileage suffers. My take on it is that if he's driving 70 and I do 60, and I can arrive at the destination within an hour of when he does, why not go slower?

It's all about what you want to achieve.

Good Luck!

DF
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bevans6
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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2011, 11:33:20 AM »

The people I talked to (SEBN Palmetto rally last year) liked the S50 in the MCI's.  It was a good looking installation, and each was different.  They all had them turned up to 350 hp.  what they liked was the perceived performance improvement from the lower and broader torque band, the power delivery in other words, and things like vastly reduced cooling requirements, electronic engine control, the Silverleaf instrumentation, etc.  No one really said one thing or another about paying for it from fuel savings, I don't think that was the point of their conversion.  I think they did it because they could, because they liked it better, and it enhanced their enjoyment.  They had some funky engine mounts for the vibration.

Now here is my question - I looked up the B400 trans to see if it had overdrive (it does, 6 speed with two overdrives) because you wouldn't like the S50 with the 3.73 gears with no overdrive, was what I was told.  It is a neat little gearbox, spec is 29 inches long which is only 3/4" longer than my Spicer 8844 per the spec sheet.  What about putting that behind my little 8V-71 MUI?  Can it be done?  Should it be done?  http://www.globaltranny.com/trannys/b400.htm

Brian
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2011, 11:37:31 AM »

Jerry uses a WT Allision and does good on fuel so I heard but he had to change the rear gears $$ Jack has a 740 and the little engine bump up to 370 on HP he doesn't do that great around 7mph about the same as my 8v92 ? why a series 50 they haven't been manufactured in years and balance shafts are getting hard to come by here in the west.

We removed a series 50 from a Eagle with a b400 was pretty gutless here 


good luck
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Just Dallas
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2011, 11:40:44 AM »

Agreed Clifford... I'd rather have a DT466 than one of those rattly 50's. LOL

Jerry uses a WT Allision and does good on fuel so I heard but he had to change the rear gears $$ Jack has a 740 and the little engine bump up to 370 on HP he doesn't do that great around 7mph about the same as my 8v92 ? why a series 50 they haven't been manufactured in years and balance shafts are getting hard to come by here in the west.

We removed a series 50 from a Eagle with a b400 was pretty gutless here 


good luck
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2011, 11:49:43 AM »

Jacks Eagle has a 740. His son Jerry, put a b500 6 speed electronic with the 50 in his MCI. Jack is traveling today (picking up his new to him MCI))!!! Give him a p.m. He will respond. Both are very pleased with the results. They did change to a 4:11 in the mci. I put a 60 in my eagle with a 4000 allison. If you are going to do this swap with a 6 speed double overdrive, I highly reccomend the lower gear. Otherwise the 6th gear will be worthless. If you are using a 740, go to a higher gear ie. 3:36 or above. This is my story and I'm stickin to it!!!
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hargreaves
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2011, 11:51:39 AM »

Clifford, I can get the package at a very reasonable price, around 2,000 . Balance shafts, we rebuild. The B400 does not have 6th gear. Do you think the B400 is a little small for the bus. Do you know what it will take to up the hp from its current 280 hp to 350 hp?
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2011, 12:01:34 PM »

Yep money when going above 320 hp on series 50 ,David never had any problems with the b400 in his Eagle he just hated the series 50 lack of power and it was set on 370 also,he has power now with his Cat lol and tells me the fuel mileage is about the same as he said if you have a Shetland horse that eats as much as a Clydesdale go for the big horse.

2 grand is not a bad price for the combo he sold his take out for 4000


good luck
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 12:15:59 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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hargreaves
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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2011, 02:08:08 PM »

Ya Clifford, but I would have to get rid of the rest of the bus. They have a number of them coming up for disposal. 1995 New Flyer high floors, they used to be natural gas series 50's but they were nothing but problems so they converted them to diesel. got about 250,000 kms on brand new motors from Detroit Diesel. Nobody wants to buy them so they are going to crush em. so sad.
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
Bill B /bus
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2011, 05:29:15 PM »

I'll jump in here with over two years on the S50 in  a 102A3. Started at 350hp and 1100 lbft.With a 6 speed HT-70, .76 overdrive in  6th. Bus response better than the 6V92 it replaced. Hill climbing was much better, no cooling issues and better fuel mileage - 8+MPG.  Upgraded the computer to 400hp and 1350 lbft. Power difference was impressive. Pyro temp went down about 100-150F. Boost improved to actually open the waste gate. And the fuel mileage increased to 9.2 MPG. Silverleaf data.

As to cooling, one radiator does the job. In fact if the outside temperature is less than 45-50F the thermostats will cause the temperature to cycle. Last winter heading south coolant temperature would slowly climb to 193-4F then fall to 183-5F. Then slowly cycle back to the 193-4F. Took about 10-12 minutes per cycle at 35F outside.

Its not an easy job to do the swap but the results are worth it. Clean engine bay. Clean toad. And less fuel burn. And the power is great.


Bill
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Bill & Lynn
MCI102A3, Series 50 w/HT70
luvrbus
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2011, 05:55:04 PM »

That is a old transmission you have there Bill,If you decide to do it Hargreaves I can get you the drawing from Cole he was the brain who did the transplants for Greyhound at Stewart and Stevenson on the MCI's I still think the C-9 or M-11 would be a better choice
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hargreaves
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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2011, 06:09:09 PM »

Clifford, I would love those drawings, pretty sure it is a go , can't resist at that price. Only concern is whether the trans will stand up to 36,000 lbs of bus. It has a retarder, don't know if I should go with it or get some jakes.  Thanks for all the input/info.    Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
hargreaves
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2011, 06:14:35 PM »

Bill, did you do your own conversion? 9 plus fuel milage sounds interesting.   Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2011, 07:10:09 PM »

Is that BC Transit getting rid of them? Do you have contact info?
Tried to send you a PM but it bounced.
My email is in profile
Thanks...Tim
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 07:38:17 PM by Timkar » Logged

Cawston, British Columbia
luvrbus
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2011, 07:22:21 PM »

Sounds like Bill has the same Silverleaf as Ed I checked the fuel chart on that setting for series 50 time to plug the Pro Link in on that one it be interesting to know what kind of torque Bill has in cruise

good luck
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 07:48:13 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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hargreaves
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2011, 09:34:43 PM »

Timkar , your e mail is hidden, yes Coast Mtn bus is selling them. e mail me at big-ger@shaw.ca
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Bill B /bus
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« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2011, 07:01:49 PM »

I don't about a difference in torque when in Cruise Control as it isn't hooked up yet. Maybe next week as I'm fabricating a new panel for various switches and indications. This way all the speed controls, except the throttle and brake will be on the left side in a great location. Stone Bennet shifter and gear indication, retarder and indication, cruise controls, Jake switch and S(hutdown) E(ngine)L and CEL. Using all different switch handles and switch actuation operation ie up/down - left/right along with indicating LED's of various colors to prevent improper switch operation.

Bill
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Bill & Lynn
MCI102A3, Series 50 w/HT70
TomC
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 07:11:17 AM »

While the Series 50 is a great engine (even with a bit of vibration at idle and contending with rebuilding the balance shafts every 300,000 miles), it is an odd ball engine that is out of production with parts getting scarcer.  While the 2 stroke engines are getting less and less easy to find someone to work on them MTU has full factory backing on parts.  And MTU is still making the 8V-71TA, 8V-92TA and 6V-53TA for military vehicles (just like Cummins is still making the VTA903).

I currently have a Caterpillar 3406B in my truck.  If it ever comes to the point where I can't run that engine because of smog (currently RV's are exempt from smog laws in Calif), I'll have a Cummins ISL at RV spec installed at 425hp and 1250lb/ft torque.  I'll probably keep the HT740 since I have 3.55 gears that give me 1830rpm at 65mph-and that's what Cummins wants the ISL geared at.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2011, 05:08:59 AM »

I have been off line for a few days, but I do need to answer some questions.  If the balance shaft needs to be rebuilt every 300,000 miles don't worry about that, I have only put 200,000 on my bus in 21 years.
 I now have 21,000 on the series 50 and would not go back to the 8v92.  My 8v92 wasn't a DD so I had no cruse control never more than 5 MPG and always had oil leaks.
I now have a MCI with a DD series 8v92 and will more than likely change it to a 50 or 60.

If there are more of those buses with the 50 and B400 I would like to buy a couple of them.
Jack
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« Reply #22 on: November 06, 2011, 05:23:27 AM »

Jack, thought you bought a model 15 Country Coach Eagle ? I can take a DDEC 8v92 and out preform a series 50 with power and fuel mileage any day of week lol with no oil leaks

good luck
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« Reply #23 on: November 06, 2011, 05:33:04 AM »

The Eagle is a long story, tell you later.
I know you are correct on the power, but I will let you know on the MPG.  The last DD 8v92 That I drove only got 6.5 at the best.   The MCI only has 133,000 on the shell and I don't think it got 6 coming home.  That was only 1200 miles, let you know later.
Jack
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« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2011, 08:11:47 AM »

Like to hear Jacks story about the Eagle. It may be like the Newell I was bidding on with no reserve. less than 24 hrs to go and the seller pulled the listing and still has it on his lot for sale. Guess he was using Ebay as cheap advertising....
Sorry for going off topic.....
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« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2011, 08:27:37 AM »

If I were keeping my bus ( and not doing the truck conversion) I would change out my 8V-71TATAAC engine with Allison V730 to a T drive.  The interesting thing about my AMGeneral 10240B transit is that it is based on the D800 Flyer out of Canada.  The Canadian version has a T drive, but was switched to a V drive by AMGeneral since nearly all transits had V drives in the 70's in the US.  I know that Santa Monica Bus lines still has some MCI Classics running (a direct cousin of the AMGeneral 10240B) that have Series 50's running with B400 transmissions in a T drive.  What I was going to do was to buy one of the buses and convert mine over to the T drive by simply removing my engine cradle and installing the newer engine cradle.  Involve changing to electonic engine and transmission controls, and changing the pumpkin on the differential from the V drive to T drive.  I'm certain that my mileage would have gone from 4.5-6 to 7-9mpg.  But not anymore since the truck is being built.  Am anticipating getting 7-9mpg with the truck.  Good Luck, TomC
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hargreaves
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« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2011, 09:39:37 AM »

Anyone interested in purchasing one of these buses' "e"mail me at big-ger@shaw.ca and I will forward you the contact at Coast Mountain Bus.  Cheers Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
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