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Author Topic: Series 60 Smog Engines  (Read 3683 times)
TomC
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« on: November 02, 2011, 07:40:36 AM »

Off road engines uses a Tier system (1, 2, 3, etc).  On road engines uses the year the engine was built.  With Series 60's, up to 1998, there were basically no smog devices on the engine sans the electronic programming that made them much cleaner then mechanical engines.  After 1998, the timing was changed (retarded I believe) hence the fuel mileage suffered.  After 2002, 25% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) was introduced and the fuel mileage suffered again.  For those that don't know-cool exhaust gases (goes through a coolant shell cooler) is used to displace oxygen in the combustion chamber to both slow and cool the combustion-hence nitrous oxides (the brown stuff in the air) is reduced.  Not a new thing for Diesels-my 1984 Mercedes Turbodiesel has it.  Then in 2007, a catalytic converter with Diesel Particulate Trap was added and again the fuel mileage suffered.  What was a nearly 8mpg engine (in big rig trucks) ended up being a 5.8mpg engine in 2007.  Then by 2010, the Series 60 was superseded by the DD series of 13, 15, and 16 liter engines.
In 2010 was introduced Diesel Exhaust Fluid (Urea that mixed with deionized water becomes a 32% ammonia mix) that is introduced after the particulate trap into the exhaust at a rate of 2% per gallon of fuel burned, EGR was reduced to 10%, fuel injection was changed from electronic unit injection to common rail.  And on the 15 and 16 liter, was added a turbo compounder.  Looks like half a turbocharger after the regular turbocharger (on the exhaust side) that is gear driven back into the rear valve gear train of the engine.  On a long hill pull, can put up to 50hp back into the engine-free horsepower!

When looking for a Series 60 to swap-look for a pre 1998 12.7 liter.  11.1 liter was made, but not as high horsepower.  The 14 liter came out with the 2002 addition of EGR-which 11.1 liter was cancelled at the same time.

The main reason the DD engines came out, is with the change over to common rail fuel injection, the elimination of the unit fuel injection rocker arm powered from the cam shaft also eliminated the means by which to power the Jake brake.  Also, compression ratio was raised and the Series 60 wasn't strong enough to handle this (according to Detroit-which I question).  Besides, they wanted a full line of engines from 350hp and 1250lb/ft torque to 600hp and 2050lb/ft torque.  They are getting excellent fuel mileage-that's why we're sold out of the DD line until next April!  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2011, 08:07:03 AM »

I saw a blown DD-15 with 180,000 mile on it yesterday at my Frieghtliner dealer had a gear failure they have a lot of crap driven from the rear man that engine was a mess I bet that trucker is going to be unhappy if he doesn't get a new engine till April lol 

good luck
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TomC
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« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2011, 08:46:54 AM »

We had a DD15 come in with 1,800 miles with an oil leak.  It was discovered the rear of the block had a crack by the gear train.  Detroit sent a new engine over night at no charge.  As with any new engine, there are teething problems-it also happened with the Series 60 when it was introduced.
The main problem is that there is no way to prime the oil filter-unless you have a power primer.  The way that is suggested to change the oil filter is to do just the oil change first.  Then with the empty new oil filter in place, start the engine at idle only-the oil fills quickly.  After the engine has settled in again with the new oil change-then change the fuel filters if necessary.  But with the new Davco 482 fuel/water separators made exclusively for the DD engines, the three fuel filters on the engine (one screen, two filters) only have to be changed every 100,000 miles-and the engine tells you when to change them.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2011, 10:52:51 AM »

I've been following this guy's blog for a while. He's got the DD15 and getting some great fuel mileage. I have concerns about the complexity of the compound turbo, but the VNT's are also complex.

 http://sliceoftruckerlife.com/blogs/henry-albert/

Ken
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2011, 01:38:30 PM »

Will a 60-series fit where a 8V71 used to be?
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2011, 04:03:35 PM »

...is used to displace oxygen in the combustion chamber to both slow and cool the combustion-hence nitrous oxides (the brown stuff in the air) is reduced. 

Nitrous Oxide (N20) in the cylinder would actually help the combustion nicely......the nasty stuff is Nitric Oxide (NO) and Nitrogen Dioxide (NO2).


Jeremy, being pedantic because everyone knew what you meant

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« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2011, 09:40:03 PM »

Yup, the DDC techs I know all say a 1997 S60 DDEC III is the last engine to go with.

Thanks for the summary Tom!!!

happy coaching!
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« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2011, 10:53:05 PM »

  After 2002, 25% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) was introduced and the fuel mileage suffered again.  Not a new thing for Diesels-my 1984 Mercedes Turbodiesel has it.  What was a nearly 8mpg engine (in big rig trucks) ended up being a 5.8mpg engine in 2007. 

  So they took an engine that got 8, and knocked it in half, because its cleaner to burn twice as much fuel. They did the same to all diesels. My 86 190D "had" EGR, a big 1 inch pipe off the exhaust manifold. Not only that, but it "had" a vacuum operated butterfly in the intake to choke off the air supply and make it breath (suck) even more exhaust. I wont say what I did, but it jumped from barely 25 MPG (which is absolutely criminal for a small diesel car), and sluggish, to 45 MPG plus, consistently, and much better performance. Some of the clowns at EPA should really lose their job.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2011, 05:53:44 AM »

I have a 2000   model out of a freight liner  I haven't  tried yet. Is there a solution/tune-up to restore fuel economy? Otherwise I will just enjoy the ride.  I drive about 8-10 thousand a year.   Bob
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« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2011, 06:01:02 AM »

A 2000 model can be either Bob,2000 was the first year I know for series 50 and I have saw series 60 both ways in that time frame I believe TomC is right on his time frame.

Takes a new cam,injectors,bull gear and reprogramming along with a few other details that I forgot lol

The 60 series didn't hang around long after that they left in 2009

good luck
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 06:42:18 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2011, 03:30:52 PM »

Tom, I LOVE this info, thanks! I am a little confused; Is a 1998 12.7L good or bad?  You say first they were good up to 98 with not much smog crap, then later that after 98 the timing was changed.  Then toward the end to look for a pre-98.  So where does that put a 98?
Thanks!
Jack
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TomC
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« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2011, 03:35:24 PM »

Have to run the numbers on the engine to see how the engine is tuned.  They had low power and high power settings then.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2011, 03:52:21 PM »

I have an 02 model 12.7. It is a ddec IV. The IV will comunicate via J1939 which I don't think the III is capable of. Could be wrong. The Detroit people tell me the IV was the best of them. According to them, better piston rod design, software, and none of the smog on the V. Best I can tell I am getting app. 8-8.5 mpg. Driving 55-65 most of the time. If my wife tells any of you I said I was getting 25-28 mpg please agree. Otherwise all that money I spent won't look like a big savings!!!LOL
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« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2011, 04:13:03 PM »

I also have a '02 DDEC 4 engine.   From what I have seen in the book, it has all the updated parts>>rods, pistons, head studs and some refined ECU tuning.   I'm over 500HP.. running strong with 250K on the clock.

If money was no object I would invest in the 14.1ltr engine and configure it with a offroad serial number to get rid of the EGR. 
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robertglines1
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« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2011, 04:15:44 PM »

New experience here for me also: I understand the 2000 yr I have is DDEC IV it is coupled to a Eaton 10 spd b series Autoshift. I am trying to gather as much knowledge as I can. The valve cover says  430 hp/470 hp assuming the 470 is with cruise engaged (correct?)   BOB
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« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2011, 04:24:36 PM »

Here are my #  Model  6067MK60       Spec  S 01 261 29004   DDEC  IV     Turbo GTA 42     Can you tell me more?   Bob
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« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2011, 04:27:53 PM »

Bob, your engine has all the good parts.   You are most likely 470HP.   What is the Detroit part number on your turbo.  You gave me the Garrett model number.
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robertglines1
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« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2011, 04:30:11 PM »

would it be under tag? if so will ck tomorrow
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« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2011, 06:04:13 PM »

Bob when I had my ecm reprogramed for the allison, the guy turned the hp up to 550. He is a certafied Detroit gug. He said that 550 on that engine would produce the best fuel mileage as well as the best tourqe curve. He told me that going higher was a waste of fuel, and lower would produce a little less mileage. Since I didn't have a clue I told him to go for it. About 2k miles so far and I am very pleased. He did say to remember you are not driving a sports car even though it may feel like it. Going faster is quicker, but slowing down still takes time!!!!LOL
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« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2011, 06:26:06 PM »

What shop turn a 12.7 up to 550 hp Eric ? doesn't sound like a dealer you need to be careful what you post on these boards lol the EPA gods may get you and the tech


good luck
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 06:29:59 PM by luvrbus » Logged

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robertglines1
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« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2011, 06:58:26 PM »

Interesting about epa guys  and other.   mileage  VS   pollution . but if you burn more fuel =more pollution per trip?
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« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2011, 07:03:28 PM »

Bob, my Kenworth T2000 is a 2000 and has the Gen I Eaton Autoshift.   Remember the autoshift can only handle a certain torque max.  You can go up on hp, but if you go up on torque and are really pulling a load you can overload the clutch.  Or so the Eaton techs told me at MATS (Middle America Truck Show). 
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Well no longer a bus nut, but over the years I learned a lot here and still come back to see what I can apply to the conversion of my KW T2000 for hauling my Teton fifth wheeler.
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« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2011, 07:15:15 PM »

All I can tell you Bob if you ever break down and need to go to a DD dealer all things better match with the records they have no sense of humor when it comes to the settings lol.

I have saw WW Williams destroy the programing on a ECM in a Peterbuilt because of the funny business the guy walked out with a Prolink did his thing came back with a laptop and wiped it out and told the trucker now it will be right or tow it some other place no monkey business with those guys


good luck
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 06:18:08 AM by luvrbus » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2011, 07:17:44 PM »

(snip)  but if you burn more fuel =more pollution per trip?

     No, it doesn't work like that.  If you burn a gallon of fuel and it's 95% efficient, it's less pollution than someone who burn 1/2 gallon of fuel but is 85% efficient.  The secret is in the efficiency of burning.  If you allow unburned fuel to go out of the tailpipe, you're making pollution.  It's not that amount that you pull out of the tank, it's the amount that goes out unburned (or isn't cleaned up by something like after-burners, Diesel Emission Fluid, catalytic converters, etc.)
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2011, 07:40:57 PM »

Specific question to TomC.  Is Fire Apparatus still exempt in CA, or do they have to beat to the same lame smog law drummer?  Thirty five years ago, we FFs had sweet running 2-stroke Detroits that apparently had no smog equipment (or mufflers) at all.  They sounded so cool.  HB of CJ (old coot)
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2011, 08:03:03 PM »

Interesting about epa guys  and other.   mileage  VS   pollution . but if you burn more fuel =more pollution per trip?

That is just it, you burn more fuel, you put more pollution into the air.

On my 2008 Diesel, not only do I have EGR I have a DPF (Diesel Particulate Filter) this is supposed to catch a bunch of the soot and hold it in the exhaust. Then after the sensors in the exhaust notice a pressure change, the ECM sends the vehicle into a regeneration cycle. This cycle dumps fuel into the exhaust during the exhaust stroke, this goes into the DPF and burns off the soot turning it into ash and falling to the ground. Sounds good in theory right? The only problem is... When it goes into regen, I can go from 15mpg down to 5mpg for 35min or more.
It also smokes like a chimney. Now is that environmentally friendly?

After many of problems with this system, and fuel getting into the oil, I took matters into my own hands. I blocked off the EGR and removed the DPF. I had to get EFI Live and go in and rewrite my ECM to turn off the regen cycle and shut off all codes associated with it and the EGR. While I was in there, I turned the turbo into an exhaust brake and changed fuel timing and a few other adjustments.

This gained me 5mpg, cleaner oil for longer periods, 90+ hp, and a turbo brake.  Grin

BTW... This is in a pickup, and for off road use only!  Wink
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« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2011, 05:15:50 AM »

It wasn't a detroit dealer that reprogramed the ecm. From what I was able to research the engine was available in marine form at that rating. As far as a name? I can't remember a first name, or last come to think of it?Huh?? Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2011, 05:23:02 AM »

It is my understanding that you can adjust the hp and tourqe seperately on the 60. Never confirmed that one. I do know that I will have the ability to program this thing before I quit. I took it to DD to change the roadspeed from a tailshaft input to J1939. $130.00 later it still dosen't work and they told me the would need 3-4 hours @ $100 per to figure it out. A few of those hours will pay for a prolink!!!
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« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2011, 06:51:13 AM »

That is ok Eric I know who your contact was lol but I'll never tell if you ask the guy for me how he makes the engine brake work when I do it the engine brake and cruise control goes away

good luck
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« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2011, 07:56:32 AM »

Wow Eric, Clifford's comment could explain your issues.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2011, 01:32:37 PM »

Interesting that Detroit is sold out.  Where are they all going?  
Maybe they just aren't making them as fast since Prevost switched to Volvo engines, and just about all the new MCI's I've seen have a bright red Cummins ISX showing just under the rear bumper.
Just about all the new high end trucks I know of have a red engine in them as well

« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 01:44:59 PM by morefire » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2011, 02:06:34 PM »

Cummins the only other engine manufactures can buy DD will not sell to other manufactures their engine only goes in their products.
The new Peterbuilts and Kw's have their own engine the MX has a blacktop they bought engine manufacture in Germany I believe


good luck
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« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2011, 03:05:35 PM »

Interesting that Detroit is sold out.  Where are they all going?  
Maybe they just aren't making them as fast since Prevost switched to Volvo engines, and just about all the new MCI's I've seen have a bright red Cummins ISX showing just under the rear bumper.
Just about all the new high end trucks I know of have a red engine in them as well



I'm not sure what happened to Detroit? But I am guessing it is the same thing as Caterpillar. Caterpillar stopped building over the road Diesels because of the new emissions regulations. They figured that they had a good enough market in the off road vehicles and equiptment, and they didn't want to get a bad name over the emissions problems. I know first hand that the auto industry has many problems with their Diesels. I can only imagine how many trucks and autos in the colder climates are going to have problems with the urea injected Diesels.
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Gary Seay (location Alaska)
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« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2011, 03:35:56 PM »

Detroit hasn't gone anywhere they just cannot keep up with the demand for the new engines in their trucks and buses,and Cat and Navistar still build the C-15 and are coming out with a new family of engines Cat is even building trucks with a partner ship with Naviastar old yellar is not dead yet lol


good luck
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« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2011, 07:35:54 PM »

Gone are the days ordering this engine in that truck or bus.

You can't put a Ford in a Chevy..along the same lines, everyone is going vertical integration, meaning you only put your own stuff in your own stuff and don't sell it to your competitors.

So, you can only get a Detroit in a Freightliner/Western Star/Setra

You get a Volvo/Mack in a Volvo/Mack/Prevost

MCI is out in the cold, so they get the independent Cummins, as does Van Hool's North American offerings.

International, is International, except when their big engine is a re-badged Caterpillar.

Cummins, as independent with no vehicle manufacturer ownership, can still get into most of them as an option, but with a huge engineering integration.They are almost like another engine department within each of the others. Risky and daring from a proprietary knowledge standpoint, but that's where the world is, if you want to stay in the engine business

happy coaching!
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« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2011, 11:58:11 PM »

So far, Caterpillar has not put a highway engine in their new truck.  The Caterpillar on highway truck is an International truck with a Caterpillar hood, and the International Maxforce 13 engine painted yellow.  Have yet to see the C15 Caterpillar engine with Internationals screwed up injection and exhaust system on it.

All big truck companies are co-owned by an European partner.  Freightliner/Western Star/ Setra buses by Mercedes-Benz (although the new DD engines are American made by Detroit still); Kenworth and Peterbilt have DAF (Dutch Automotive Fabrication); Mack is engined and owned by Volvo (no such thing as a Mack engine anymore); International by MAN (Manufacturing Augsberg Nurenbug); Autocar is still an American independent (trash trucks) running Cummins.  Good Luck,  TomC
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« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2011, 10:18:25 AM »

I saw a new VanHool today that had a DD13 Detroit it also has the Daimler label when did that happen ? VanHool,Thomas and Setra what a combo looks to me like the Germans are getting serious about the bus thing 


good luck
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