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Author Topic: New Allison 10 speed  (Read 6553 times)
TomC
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« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2011, 10:09:19 PM »

I believe the last mechanical engine to be offered in a truck or bus was the Caterpillar 3406B 425hp.  I know that when I bought my '93 Freightliner it had a 3406C PEEC (Programmable Electronic Engine Controls) that was basically an electronically controlled engine throttle-which could easily be reconverted back to a mechanical engine.  I believe around 1996 was when all mechanical engines disappeared.  Hence we're talking around 15 years that electronically controlled engines have been around.  So saying that the TC-10 electronically controlled transmission will only work with electronically controlled engines is accurate.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2011, 06:20:48 AM »

  (snip)  15 years that electronically controlled engines have been around.  So saying that the TC-10 electronically controlled transmission will only work with electronically controlled engines is accurate.  Good Luck, TomC   

   But, but, but ... the ex-spurts on here say that elec-engines are unreliable, cost $$$-thousands to repair and maintain, parts prices are terrible, they won't fit in anything, and they give your dog gonorrhea.  Wassa busnut to do?Huh
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
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buswarrior
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« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2011, 06:54:02 AM »

The qualifier is that the electronic drive trains that are corrupted and corroded, by way of wiring pierced by idiot techies, are a busnut nightmare. And pretty much everyone was piercing wires back then, since they always did it with the older coaches... add in the natural aging process and cracking wire insulation...

Piercing wires today will get you fired right out the door in any respectable shop.
 
Any busnut who has replaced the wiring on an electronic drive train enjoys reliability.

Just as the paint needs freshening, the interior needs torn out and replaced, rust dealt with, a few panels straightened or replaced, freshening up the wiring will be on the new busnut's agenda.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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TomC
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« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2011, 07:02:20 AM »

Splicing wires on an electronic engined truck is a big no-no.  Especially if systems are multi-plexed.  At least on Freightliner's M2 line, the wiring is multi-plexed-meaning we have "smart" switches-which are switches with built in electronic tones.  The computer picks up these tones (think like a telephone) and then turns on the corresponding apparatus. This has the advantage of eliminating over 150 wires under the dash. But-if it goes south, you're on a hook to the nearest shop.  This is why Freightliner has their line of multi-plexed wiring trucks, and Western Star still wires their trucks the original mechanical way (which I prefer).

Pretty much-you either accept the electronic engines and possibly electronic wiring, or you buy an old enough bus that still is all mechanical.  Personally-I like the mechanical way.  That's why I'm converting my '85 Kenworth-it has zero computers on board.  And in California, RV's are exempt from smog laws (at least for now).  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2011, 07:12:59 AM »

Some vehicles have gone even further and use fibre-optic 'wiring' now. I've no idea if any commercial vehicles have taken this step yet, but do know for instance that the Range Rover went to a fibre-optic loom as far back as 2005, although not on every system.

Jeremy
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2011, 07:14:52 AM »

And all of us know how reliable a Range Rover is-NOT.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #36 on: December 14, 2011, 07:41:57 AM »

Hey, my Range Rover hasn't broken down once in the last couple of years. I've not used it during that time you understand, but still, it's not broken down.

(To be fair, it's generally reckoned that Land Rovers are pretty good nowadays. But they definitely still carry a stigma from when they weren't)

Jeremy
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« Reply #37 on: December 14, 2011, 07:57:04 AM »

Most of the modern buses use the German CAN wiring system now talk about a PITA

good luck
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« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2011, 08:16:57 AM »

I took some Prevost factory training on the multiplex system they use in their coaches. I initially thought it was going to be scary. I am a believer in the current (no pun intended) technology.

There are a number of larger and smaller "brains" or modules that all share a twisted pair of communication lines. Those modules handle almost all of the switching previously done with relays or mechanical switches. Because the system is always measuring itself the modules are smart enough to recognize a problem and to report the problem to the message center at the dash.

The point is unless and until someone starts getting creative with wiring or devices the system is very reliable, but more important if a module has a defect, one not handling a critical function can be pulled and put in place of a defective module. The new module will be retaught to handle functions at its new address automatically and when convenient the damaged or defective module can be replaced.

Where sytems like this are going to frustrate people who are stuck in the past is any changes such as swapping one type of headlight for another will require a change to the master computer. Prevost will retain a copy of the new software. The change of any component or elimination of a component is seen by the module(s) as a defect and will be reported on the message center. The system however is extremely helpful because it is always monitoring and trouble shooting its functions. No more guessing about a problem. The system narrows it down. If you can figure out a smart phone you can figure out a multiplex system and message center.

I get the chills looking at some older coaches. The level of craftsmanship in some cases is scary with a mess of wires just cut and hanging and splices and wire nuts and all sorts of patched together circuits. Any of the newer vehicles whether cars, trucks or buses that are using this technology are going to be intolerant of such creativity. But don't fear the technology. Yes in sme cases to do a conversion on a formerly seated coach with multiplex will require a visit to a Prevost shop, but that multiplex system has about 30% fewer wires, switches, circuit breakers and lengths of wire. In the long run it is going to be a lot better.
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Jon Wehrenberg
Knoxville TN
1997 Prevost Liberty
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« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2011, 12:36:55 PM »

Most of the modern buses use the German CAN wiring system now talk about a PITA

good luck

AMEN!

Quote from: prevosman
The point is unless and until someone starts getting creative with wiring or devices the system is very reliable, but more important if a module has a defect, one not handling a critical function can be pulled and put in place of a defective module. The new module will be retaught to handle functions at its new address automatically and when convenient the damaged or defective module can be replaced.

The system however is extremely helpful because it is always monitoring and trouble shooting its functions. No more guessing about a problem. The system narrows it down. If you can figure out a smart phone you can figure out a multiplex system and message center.

I get the chills looking at some older coaches. The level of craftsmanship in some cases is scary with a mess of wires just cut and hanging and splices and wire nuts and all sorts of patched together circuits.


NOT NECESSARILY TRUE! (at least not on all brands!) On our 2005 Setra's we had a problem created by another problem (see paragraph below) and stole a "known" good module from the exact same location on it's sister coach. (consecutive VIN's & 100% identical)
But the problem was not solved by changing this module. And in fact when the other module was put in the other coach it then would not recognize it either!
Only after calling Setra did we learn that ANY TIME a module is changed one for another it has to be reprogrammed by a Setra technician with his "STAR" Machine (Setra's own PROLINK type system for the coach side of things, and not available to anyone BUT SETRA EMPLOYEES!) or a "self healer" which anyone can buy from Setra for $850 (and I have one sitting here in front of me on my desk as I type this! It's the 1/2 size of a pack cigarettes and plugs into the SETRA data port like a PROLINK does the DDEC port)
Had to use it on both coaches in order to get them to recognize their own modules once we found out what the idiots had screwed up! And corrected it.


OK now back to the beginning of the trouble above. Dad was driving down I-55 just south of Memphis, TN and the bus just shut off like he'd turned the key off.
But he hadn't.
We called Setra and they had dad do some "preliminary tests" which none of them helped pin point the problem. So they called Clarke Power Services out of Memphis to send a service tech out and hook it up the DDEC to a computer/prolink and see what it was.
Well that still didn't tell them anything new!
(in the mean time I had called an associate to come get our passengers off the highway and onto their destination.)
So along comes a big wrecker and that bus gets it's 1st tow! They take it back to Clarke in Memphis and lock it up for the holiday weekend. (Easter weekend and I was in FL on the beach)
On Tuesday they start trying to find the problem with Setra's tech support by phone. And after 3 days of unsuccessful attempts to find & fix the problem Setra sent a field rep to Memphis to see if he can help find it.
Well on Monday he determines that it is a broken wire between the ignition switch and the DDEC unit for power to the DDEC from the switch.

So he tells them they need to run a new wire from the DDEC to the ignition switch. After supposedly "trying to find the broken wire" for 4 more days, they finally decide do as he suggested @ the beginning of week 2 in the shop.
On Monday of week 3 they call and tell us we have run a new wire, but it's still not right, and we are getting strange codes on our code readers.
SO all week they fool with it until the field rep shows up again on Thursday. And tells them "No wonder your having problems, you just tied into the old wire on both ends and left it in line! You have to eliminate it from your new circuit as it is part of a "CAN" system."

So Thursday evening of week 3 they call me and tell me it's ready. So on Friday morning I get a ride to Memphis and get dropped off to pick it up.
Well just like Gomer Pyle would say "SURPRISE, SURPRISE, SURPRISE" it was not ready! They were still not done with it. They were having issues with something.

SO I waited a little while before getting upset. Then I went out to the bus to see what it was holding things up. And they were still fooling with wiring.
I called our Setra Field Rep and told him about it and he was PO'd and called them.
(he & I had told them I had to have it on Saturday!)

Finally they tell me it starts and runs, but it still is doing weird things.

So I asked like what? They said for one the lights turn on & off by them selves and the flashers do to.

SO I get in the bus and start it an sure enough the emergency flashers come on for about 2 minutes and go out.

I told them "Hey look it's Friday evening and WE HAVE TO HAVE IT TOMORROW! It's just gonna have to be goofy is all I can say!"

So they put the wiring slide out tray back in place and close the compartment and tell me OK your good to go.

Well the door starts to shut then suddenly jerks back open. The inside lights don't work, the heat/ac system display won't adjust from "auto" the audio/video system won't come on.
And the service panels in the floor of the bus in the rear are not put down!

I went back inside and told them "It ain't nowhere ready to go, and you'd better get somethings fixed now, or get another bus company to do the run it's supposed to do tomorrow at your expense and either get me a rental car, or a hotel and cover my expenses from this moment until I get my bus back. You told me 24 hrs ago it was ready, and we took your word for it, and I've been here 12 hrs so far today and I'm tired, hungry and PO'd!"

While waiting for them to figure out what they were going to do I went back to the bus and figured out the problem with the door. They had folded the lower mirror around into the path of the door and when the safety strip on the door edge touched it the door would go back open in safety mode!

Then the guy that came out and put the floor panels down told me some of the screws are missing, I'll go get some.
I knew this was going to be interesting.
So a few minutes later he comes back with some long sheet metal screws and goes back and fiddles around for a few minutes and comes back out and says it's done.

I walked back to the back and as I walked on the panels they settled in the floor and much to my horror/surprise the sheet metal screws stuck up about an inch above the floor/panels!

I went back inside and asked for the supervisor. When he said that would be me I told him "Sir I need your full name and the name of that idiot that just left exposed screws sticking an inch about the floor level for someone to get hurt and SUE you, him, & CLARKE POWER SERVICES over! I will not be responsible for this!"

He just looked at me in disbelief and asked me to "show him what I was talking about"

So back to the bus we went. And I showed him that if he or I stepped on the panels that were not properly secured by his idiots sheet metal screws they exposed the screws. And told him if someone got hurt I would see to it that they sued Clarke and not us.

Well he was as PO'd as me by then and went inside and sound his idiot. I didn't hear the word exchange, but I saw it and he ripped that guy up one side and down the other! I did hear the last words he yelled as he walked away. "I don't care how, but find someway to fasten those down where no one will get hurt! AND DO IT NOW!"

So I'm sitting in the drivers seat on the phone with the field rep and watch the guy get on the bus with some "lag" bolts, a hammer, and other tools.
About 5 mins later he gets off the bus and says that should do it!

I could not believe it and told the field rep what had just happened while we were talking. I got up and went to the back and looked and sure enough 3 off the holes had lag bolts in them. But the panels were secure as I walked on them, and I was too pissed and tired at this time to fight anymore so I left!

I drove the bus the next day with the other issues with no interior lights, no audio/video and the HVAC system doing what it anted too.

On Monday dad & I started working our way through the issues and Setra insisted that we needed a new yada yada module and they could overnight us one for $3000.

That is when we went to the Clarke Power Services shop in Jackson, TN and stole the yada yada module out of the unit in their shop for a transmission.

And when we discovered you can't just swap modules from place to place or coach to coach with out a "self healer or "Star" machine!
So we paid $850 for a self healer and had it over nighted. And then found out the next day it still didn't correct the problem.
After a week of dad & a service tech on the phone together checking wires from one end to another in all the circuits effected I accidentally stumbled on the problem by accident when dad had me unplug a plug from a module out under the driver seat. And I saw the wires were twisted funny and very short/tight from another plug.
With dad checking the wire numbers and the tech support telling dad which wire should be in which position in what plug. We discovered they had switched 4 wires from two plugs that shouldn't have been touched!
Once we swapped those wires back everything worked fine with either module in it! (after running the "self healer" after swapping modules that is!)


OK while it is true some wiring rats nests are very scary to look at sometimes. At least on the older coaches it ain't that hard to run a new wire to replace a mess! And there ain't much wiring required to make it run to get it home where the wiring in question can be ripped out and redone correctly! Try that on a 2005 up model, and let me know what the wrecker bill costs!
Grin  BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2011, 01:35:31 PM »

Perhaps that's why some companies only buy new buses and sell them off early.  It might be cheaper in the long run.

For most of my life, I have only bought used cars and trucks.  I think the next one will be new.  There are just too many expensive things to go wrong when they get 8 or 10 years old.
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« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2011, 03:51:53 PM »

I had my Mercedes 300 turbodiesel towed-the flex plate between the flywheel and the torque converter cracked and was making a big racket.  The tow truck operator said that Range Rovers by a long shot are what he tows the most of.  And considering how many are sold compared to the bigger companies, that's pretty bad.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
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« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2011, 05:36:44 PM »

Yeah, but most of those Range Rovers won't have actually broken down - it's just that their owners have found an imaginative way of reducing the fuel consumption; and anyway, a Range Rover on the back of a recovery truck is still a better vehicle than all those boring ones that move about under their own power.

Can you tell I'm slightly biased? Cheesy


Jeremy

PS. I spent some time recently doing some serious research into Porsche Cayennes, after finding that the early ones are theoretically within my budget. Talk about horror stories - if you think Rangies are unreliable and expensive to own, it seems Cayennes are in another league again.



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« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2011, 05:15:47 AM »

BK......I can only speak about the Prevost Multiplex system where changing modules can be done all day long and the system is perfectly happy with that happening.

I have zero knowledge of any other system. None. Nada. Zip.

Apparently Setra chooses to do their system differently. But I do know for sure the Prevost system is a joy to work on because the message center will tell the technician or driver what is happening, and the master module is the only module that will require reprogramming and which is not interchangeable with any other.

In the Prevost system each module location has an "address" that is defined by white wires that go from specific pin(s) to specific pin(s) on the connector. All modules in the coach are generic, and their function is only defined by the master module when the module is placed at that "address". They are as interchangeable as relays. The system doesn't care which goes where because it will teach each module its functions once it is in place.

Where future problems are going to occur is when technicians chose to start getting creative. If a coach has LED side markers and one has to be replaced, and the technician used an incandescent bulb type side marker the system will know something is wrong. The modules not only handle the electrical switching internally, up to 30 amps each, there are "soft" circuit breakers because the system knows what power consumption or resistance there should be on a given circuit and that change will be flagged as an error message and the module will open the circuit. The days of splicing into a wire to add a new light or device are gone. Changing devices with lower or greater power requirements such a headlights are no longer possible without reprogramming the master module to the new values.

But to eliminate those types of issues the coach has multiple locations where new devices can be added by hooking them to "always on" or "Key on" terminals for power. Those terminals are not monitored by the multiplex system.

My point in all this is no two manufacturers are necessarily going to be alike. What is true for Prevost is not true for Setra or VanHool or MCI. What will be a constant is future repairs and service are going to have to be done by techs who understand the systems, their limits, how they work, and how to access the diagrams and component schedules and who understand the days of cobbling up a repair are gone.
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Jon Wehrenberg
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« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2011, 09:50:03 AM »

I would have to say that I am ambivalent about the conflict between electronic and mechanical.  No one can say that electronic is not superior when it is all working right.  The problem for me is that I do not view any of these coaches to have been designed to be maintained by an amateur in his backyard.  I realize that some here are not amateurs, but I definitely am.  Therefore, I see solving mechanical issues, although much more straight forward, as enough of a challenge.  Overlaying the deep mysteries of electronics would be far more complex to deal with.  How many times have you seen posts of members trying to figure out if their start problem was starter, cable, battery, generator, or other in origin?  If such a simple system as that causes confusion, it could be so much more so when all is electronic.  I have had cars with apparently unsolvable electronic problems.  I have known people that got rid of cars after the frustration of trying, even when using theoretically qualified mechanics.

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