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Author Topic: Tech Tip: Preparation For Running Out Of Fuel...  (Read 3635 times)
John E. Smith
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« on: October 19, 2006, 08:31:32 PM »

Ever made the BIG mistake, and run your Detroit out of fuel???  All of us who have will never forget it... and those of us who haven't never want to.

Well, I have a little trick that I use with Detroits that a mechanic taught me -- years ago when I ran my old Dodge D400 cabover out of fuel.  It had a 318, and try as I might I just could not get it to start -- I had completely emptied the pump & filters!

One of the first things I do whenever I buy any vehicle with a DD engine is to add a couple of fittings to the line coming from the primary fuel filter to the pump, and I add a check-valve to the line from the tank to the primary (or secondary) fuel filter (this is to keep the fuel from back-flowing into the tank when you pressurize -- many older vehicles did not have one in the line).  On the pump side of the primary filter, I add a 90-degree brass elbow with a quick disconnect on the end.  I use the male side with an in-line valve so that I can seal the line up after I get everything going again.

I also carry a small electric fuel pump -- you can get them at any auto parts store for around $30 to $40 -- with about 6 feet of fuel line that ends in the mating quick disconnect.  On the other side of the little pump, I use just enough fuel line to drop into a 5 gallon fuel can.

After that, whenever I ran out of fuel, I simply put enough fuel in the tank to get me to a truck stop, then primed the filters and connected the little pump to my new connection; the other end went into a can full of fuel.  I would turn on the little pump and let it run for a couple of minutes to pressurize the line to the engine's pump, then start up the Detroit.  Once it has run for about 5 minutes with the "assist", shut it down and disconnect your "cheater pump" -- if you used an in-line valve, don't forget to close that before disconnecting!

This little trick has worked time and time again for me, and not just on Detroit engines -- Cat engines can be a ^)&%^(*&$#(*& to get started, too!

John
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2006, 08:50:13 PM »

Good Advise

Bill
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2006, 10:18:17 PM »

Simple solution- use 1/4 tank on the fuel gauge as your empty and time to refill, and it will never happen.  In 1.3 million miles of truck driving, only happened once to me, and that's when my tanks were syphoned.  Besides, it is always better to have the tanks kept full, especially when parking for extended period of time to keep the air pocket as small as you can in the tank to prevent condesation. Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2006, 06:13:52 AM »

Yes, but many of the older coaches don't have functional fuel guages... and MC9's don't have one at all.
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2006, 06:20:28 AM »

and MC9's don't have one at all.

Fuel gauges were an option on MC9s, and I would bet the majority have them.

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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2006, 07:48:24 AM »

Especially transits, like I have, didn't have a fuel gauge.  But I lucked out, in that when I pulled my fuel tank to install the separate fuel pickup and return for the generator, I discovered that the top of the tank had two (!) 5 screw plates just waiting for one of them being used for the fuel gauge (used a standard universal truck pickup that is calibrated for 12v positive reading full and no power reading empty [some use positive for full, no power for half and reverser polarity to bring the needle to empty]) and used the other plate for my gen pickup and return. Currently, my sender needs to be replaced, but I write down the mileage everytime I fill (always fill to the top, or stop the nozzle when the filling whistle stops-I discovered that if you kept going just a few seconds longer, the fuel would spit out the filler when the nozzle finally stopped automatically).  With a 140gal tank, with 90% usuable, the 126gal should average 630 miles (5mpg).  But always get fuel at around 450 miles and usually put in 80-90 gals.  Just my system, and haven't (and won't) run out of fuel.  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2006, 08:15:40 AM »

John -

How about some pics of your fuel primer parts/system??

Might really help the other newbies!

 Wink
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RJ Long
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2006, 08:23:25 AM »

After that, whenever I ran out of fuel, I simply put enough fuel in the tank to get me to a truck stop, then primed the filters and connected the

This sentence would indicate that you have run out of fuel multiple times.  I don't understand how anyone could make this mistake more than once, unless you are talking on different vehicles.  I did run out on my Ford pickup once, but I had run that route many times so I wasn't watchng the gauge closely.  I ran out 50 miles before my usual fuel stop due to a terrible head wind.  (I had a full 5 gallon can of diesel just in case.)

My fuel gauge didn't work well previously, but I replaced the sender with one from Centroid Products and my gauge reads perfect now.  The two wire sender from Centroid requires a gauge that reads from 33 to 240 ohms (not terribly common).  I was lucky that my guage is a 33/240 already.

Brian Elfert
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 09:56:21 AM by belfert » Logged
kyle4501
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2006, 09:24:54 AM »

As simple as these fittings are to add, seems a reasonable thing to do as it will make changing the fuel filters an easier job too.

I have heard that the only greyhounds that ran out of fuel had fuel gauges.

Jerry L was telling me about the sending unit he used in his for incredible accuracy, maybe he can chime in.

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Dallas
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2006, 11:33:19 AM »

Brian,

It's not the driver that runs out of fuel.
I've driven a whole bunch of different trucks and buses that weren't even close to being accurate.
I learned to never, ever, ever, depend on the guage for an accurate reading.
As an example, your gauge may read totally accuratlely now. That does'nt mean it will in the future. Even a voltage change of .005V will affect the reading. That .005V change is due to resistance being built up from crud and corruption.
In a couple of years, after whatever fuel you put in and however long it sits, are you going to be able to trust that guage to be accurate?
There ain't no way.

DO NOT EVER, EVER, EVER Believe your gauges. The only way to know what is actually going on is to get out and check your mechanical  gauges. All that the dash instruments are there for is to give you an "IDEA" of whats going on with your equipment, it is NOT the end all, be all, of your needs.

Again, NEVER EVER believe what you see on the dash board, take it as an "estimate" not a cast in stone reading.

Dallas

« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 04:13:02 PM by Dallas » Logged
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2006, 01:27:59 PM »

Quote
author=Dallas link=topic=2248.msg19322#msg19322 date=1161369199]
Brian,
It's not the driver that runs out of fuel.
I've driven a whole bunch of different trucks and buses that weren't even close to being accurate.
I learned to never, ever, ever, depend on the guage for an accurate reading.
As an example, your guage may read totally accuratlely now. That does'nt mean it will in the future. Even a voltage change of .005V will affect the reading.
In a couple of years, after whatever fuel you put in and however long it sits, are you going to be able to trust that guage to be accurate?
There ain't no way.

How come cars and pickup trucks have gauges that tend to work year after year after year?  My dad has 185,000 miles on his Dodge Caravan and the gauges work just as well as day one.  My VW Golf diesel has three years and 50,000 miles and the gauges work like new.

Why is it considered a given that gauges on a bus or heavy truck won't work after a time?

I did have a mechanical temp gauge installed on my bus as a doublecheck on the front gauge.  The new fuel sender I installed has no moving parts so I don't know why it won't be accurate years down the road.  My old sender was the mechanical float type and the contacts were covered in black goop when I took it out so I can see why it was so inaccurate.  (At least it wasn't rusty like some.)

Brian Elfert[]
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« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 01:33:39 PM by DrivingMissLazy » Logged
kyle4501
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 01:43:12 PM »

In my experience, most gauges are accurate, for a while anyway. I just don't want to get caught short when the gauge takes a crap.  Shocked

Just remember, Murphy was an optimist!  Smiley
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 02:11:28 PM »

Duty cycle.

If we ran our cars for a million or two miles, the gauges wouldn't work in them either.

Primary decision making for fuel might be suggested to be mileage based, look at the gauge as mildly interesting, and to see if it matches your mileage calculations.

For the typical 8V71 with 144 USgallons:

250 miles, somewhere around half tank.

500 miles safe range on the highway, less if you are doing a lot of city.

Get fuel and fill it to the rim.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2006, 03:48:44 PM »

Hi - Dallas or anyone else who knows about this,

What are the mechanical guages?  All I have seen so far on my MC9 is the in - dash guage.  I'd sure like to know about any mechanical guages.  That sounds like a real good idea!

Thanks - Phil

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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2006, 03:54:54 PM »

Hi - Dallas or anyone else who knows about this,

What are the mechanical guages?  All I have seen so far on my MC9 is the in - dash guage.  I'd sure like to know about any mechanical guages.  That sounds like a real good idea!

Thanks - Phil

Phil,

Most of us (or previous owners) put a set of mechanical guages in the engine compartment so if our dash guages show something way out of wack we can go to the back and check the "real sittuation out". BK  Grin
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2006, 03:57:00 PM »

The buswarrior is right.  Most of us don't tend to run 140 or so gallons of fuel at a time in our cars.  Just think about the mileage, road wear, useage, etc on an old bus.  It's a wonder the headlights still work, and sometimes, they don't.  I've been "lurking" around this board long enough to know that sometimes, things on these buses just break down.  

My 4107 didn't come with a fuel guage, and never had one.  I used a solid piece of round rubber with a hook on one end as a "dipstick".  I starved mine of fuel once, when I parked on a hill.  I got some sound advice from this board about using a very well washed out soap bottle to get it started again.  

Worked like a charm

Jimmy
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2006, 03:59:54 PM »

Hi - Dallas or anyone else who knows about this,

What are the mechanical guages?  All I have seen so far on my MC9 is the in - dash guage.  I'd sure like to know about any mechanical guages.  That sounds like a real good idea!

I thought MCI normally installed one or more gauges in the rear, or maybe only on buses newer than the MC-9s?  I only looked at 102A3s.

My Dina only had a rear oil pressure gauge, so I had C&J Bus Repair install a mechanical temp gauge so I could figure out if I am really getting as hot as the fron gauge says.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2006, 04:06:07 PM »

I'm really glad I got the Series 60 if an 8V71 needs fuel at 500 miles.  I have a 150 gallon tank and figure I could do 1200 miles if I emptied the tank, so 1000 miles is a good target for fuel.  When I planned my trip out west, I planned to stop about every 900 miles since those happened to be the lowest cost fuel stops within 100s of miles.

I'm going to watch both the fuel gauge and the odometer when deciding when to fuel up.  The fuel gauge was really bad when I got my bus.  It was reading right at E one time so I got fuel.  I still had 60 gallons left out of 150!

Brian Elfert
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 04:13:21 PM by belfert » Logged
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2006, 04:06:25 PM »

Ever made the BIG mistake, and run your Detroit out of fuel???  All of us who have will never forget it... and those of us who haven't never want to.

Well, I have a little trick that I use with Detroits that a mechanic taught me -- years ago when I ran my old Dodge D400 cabover out of fuel.  It had a 318, and try as I might I just could not get it to start -- I had completely emptied the pump & filters!

One of the first things I do whenever I buy any vehicle with a DD engine is to add a couple of fittings to the line coming from the primary fuel filter to the pump, and I add a check-valve to the line from the tank to the primary (or secondary) fuel filter (this is to keep the fuel from back-flowing into the tank when you pressurize -- many older vehicles did not have one in the line).  On the pump side of the primary filter, I add a 90-degree brass elbow with a quick disconnect on the end.  I use the male side with an in-line valve so that I can seal the line up after I get everything going again.

I also carry a small electric fuel pump -- you can get them at any auto parts store for around $30 to $40 -- with about 6 feet of fuel line that ends in the mating quick disconnect.  On the other side of the little pump, I use just enough fuel line to drop into a 5 gallon fuel can.

After that, whenever I ran out of fuel, I simply put enough fuel in the tank to get me to a truck stop, then primed the filters and connected the little pump to my new connection; the other end went into a can full of fuel.  I would turn on the little pump and let it run for a couple of minutes to pressurize the line to the engine's pump, then start up the Detroit.  Once it has run for about 5 minutes with the "assist", shut it down and disconnect your "cheater pump" -- if you used an in-line valve, don't forget to close that before disconnecting!

This little trick has worked time and time again for me, and not just on Detroit engines -- Cat engines can be a ^)&%^(*&$#(*& to get started, too!

John

John you make a great point, and as a matter of fact I used to use the same set up and posted it a long time ago, then our very own MAK (Mike the owner of this board) taught we a simple neat little trick that works great and cost's less $ ! If you go to any convienence, grocery, walmart, or any other store you can buy a small bottle of dish soap (dump the soap in a cup or ziploc baggie for clean up use after yer done) after putting fuel in the tank. Fill the bottle with diesel, and use it in one of the plugs (where you'd put your quick disconnect) on the filter block to prime the engine (refill and reprime if neccessary) and once engine is running on it's own put the plug back in and wash up! and away ya go! Simple & cheap! BK  Grin
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belfert
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2006, 04:14:50 PM »

John you make a great point, and as a matter of fact I used to use the same set up and posted it a long time ago, then our very own MAK (Mike the owner of this board) taught we a simple neat little trick that works great and cost's less $ ! If you go to any convienence, grocery, walmart, or any other store you can buy a small bottle of dish soap (dump the soap in a cup or ziploc baggie for clean up use after yer done) after putting fuel in the tank. Fill the bottle with diesel, and use it in one of the plugs (where you'd put your quick disconnect) on the filter block to

Okay, how the heck do you get all the soap residue out of the bottle?  I have a soap bottle here I have rinsed numerous times and it still foams up every time I rinse it.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2006, 04:31:17 PM »

John you make a great point, and as a matter of fact I used to use the same set up and posted it a long time ago, then our very own MAK (Mike the owner of this board) taught we a simple neat little trick that works great and cost's less $ ! If you go to any convienence, grocery, walmart, or any other store you can buy a small bottle of dish soap (dump the soap in a cup or ziploc baggie for clean up use after yer done) after putting fuel in the tank. Fill the bottle with diesel, and use it in one of the plugs (where you'd put your quick disconnect) on the filter block to

Okay, how the heck do you get all the soap residue out of the bottle?  I have a soap bottle here I have rinsed numerous times and it still foams up every time I rinse it.

Brian Elfert

Brian don't worry about a little suds if ya rinse it once or twice with diesel getting the engine running is the main concern! (besides it will be a clean burning fuel ! LOL!) Seriously it won't be enongh to hurt anything! BK  Grin
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Busted Knuckle aka Bryce Gaston
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2006, 06:43:18 PM »

and MC9's don't have one at all.
Fuel gauges were an option on MC9s, and I would bet the majority have them.
You're right about them being an option... but most did not have them.   I know for a fact that none of the NJ Transit MC9's were spec'ed with fuel guages (i've been working on a former one for the past few days!), and most Greyhounds didn't. 
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2006, 06:52:57 PM »

After that, whenever I ran out of fuel, I simply put enough fuel in the tank to get me to a truck stop, then primed the filters and connected the

This sentence would indicate that you have run out of fuel multiple times.  I don't understand how anyone could make this mistake more than once, unless you are talking on different vehicles.
Multiple times in multiple vehicles!  I drove trucks for over 25 years... my first truck "of my own" was a 1975 Dodge D400 cabover with a 318 & a 10 speed RoadRanger.  But I have probably driven over 100 trucks during that time -- and the only one that had a fuel guage that was even remotely accurate was my last one, a 1995 Kenworth W900.

I have run out of fuel in some of the most Gawd-awful places, too... like on the eastbound approach to Eisenhower Tunnel on I-70 in the middle of a blizzard!  Actually, I still had about 40 gallons, but the steep angle I was climbing made the fuel drain to the back of the tank.  Not my fault, though... I wanted to fuel in Grand Junction, but my boss wouldn't let me get fuel until Denver!  I ended up getting it in Downieville, after lugging 5 gallons back to the truck!

Just to answer some of the previous posts that might have sounded a bit smug -- never say you won't run out of fuel; Murphy will make sure you do!  Wink
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2006, 06:57:35 PM »

All of these replies are good but just wanted to say that this is a good time to advise everyone that utilizing a SEPERATE fuel tank for your generator (which most of us have on board) will almost always leave you with an extra amount of fuel, JUST IN CASE you put yourself in a situation where you might run out of fuel or DO, and you need fuel to re-fill the filters or prime the motor for starting! Even with this extra tank, I still carry a 5 U.S. gal. can on board!

Ace
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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2006, 08:00:09 PM »

FWIW, an MC9 with a 6V92 and 140 gal fuel tanks will easily go more than 700 miles without refueling.  And one still won't be running out of fuel.   An 8V71 would also go a similar distance.  Unless someone has a rather smallish fuel tank, 500 mile refueling is a matter of comfort...nothing wrong with refueling at 500 mile intervals.   By the time I drive 500 miles straight, need a prybar to get out of the drivers seat....age related issues I reckon.   If one spent all day in the hills, this range may not be accurate, but in the flatlands,  a 2 stroke isn't that bad.  About the same milage as an S60...around 6 MPG....just take a little longer to get there.  Wink
I've got an NJT with a retrofit electric fuel gage (very easy to install) that I installed  in the spring a year and a half ago...the first pickup rusted to the point of failure in 14 months.  When you look at that fuel gauge and it's suddenly reading empty, that'll pucker your butt....bad fuel guage, busted fuel line, out of fuel...Huh     Recently installed a new pickup, bought from Luke, that looks stronger.   
Never had any water problems, but it's obviously there.  Tank appears  new (2001 was new) and clean.  And it doesn't sit around empty.
Haven't figured this one out yet.   May be the reason MCI didn't use senders.   No mater how much fuel is in the tank, the sender is always above the fuel level.
Most NJTs have a primer fuel pump (Phil, isn't your 'Cabin an ex-NJT) mounted in the fuel filler compartment.  A ball valve is located next to the pump that shuts off the supply line while priming.   
I've changed my filters once and thought the thing was never going to run again.  Even with the primer runing it took about 20 minutes of primer run time to evacuate the system.  I didn't realize this until a discussion with Gumpy, and spent all day screwing around checking hte DDEC and everything else.   I'm changing the filters again tomorrow.  I'd had the engine out the last time, and all the fuel had run out of the engine.   Hoping I don't repeat the headache from last time. 
I've got a fitting on the secondary where the old starter interlock was located...clear plastic line connects with a small valve.  Open the valve, stick the line in a jug, run the primer and watch for air bubbles to cease.   The filters are always filled prior to installing.
I'll post the results.  Surely changing filters cannot be this painful each time?
Got a new plan....going to install dry and loose...run the primer and fill the primary, tighten the primary, and run the pump until fuel runs out of the loose secondary and tighten it down.  How's this sound?  It sure as he11 won't be any nastier than trying to install full filters on an MC9...that's a poor location for fuel filters.     
I'm open to any ideas on this subject that may improve changing fuel filters.   Perhaps this time won't be so bad.   

Keep the tech items coming John! 
 
Cheers, JR



 
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« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2006, 01:58:21 PM »

Hello.

Good info, for those that know what we mean.... Let's be careful we don't lead someone down the path to an empty fuel tank!

In the interests of those who need to follow directions, as opposed to those who are capable of writing their own....

An 8V71 and auto equipped MCI with the regular 144 US gallon fuel tank was rated by the manufacturer at a "SAFE" mileage of 500 miles. Some of you may still have, or removed, the sticker from the ceiling above the driver. The 6V92 were similiar in consumption.

Yes, you may go a lot further in interstate running trim.

Or, if you drive it like a transit service, from corner to corner, you might not even make it to the 500 miles!

It might be described as gambling, trying to use the last 20 gallons or so, due to the risk of the fuel pick-up coming out of the fuel on slopes/hills/driveways as the fuel sloshes to the downhill end of the tank.

The key, as you become more familair with your coach, and if you want to stretch the range of your coach without running out of fuel: start with the tank full to the lip, keep track of where and how it has been driven, speed matters here, how far, and how much fuel it took to fill it back up to the lip of the tank.

On the speed topic: You'll lose close to 1 mpg between 60 and 70 mph in one of these coaches.
Quite a hit to the calculations!  Using up a healthy 120 US gallons,
70 mph @ 6 mpg = 720 miles   
60 mph @ 7 mpg = 840 miles

And the 720 miles gets covered in 100 minutes more, using 17 fewer gallons, running at 60 than 70.

Money for refreshments? Shocked

Let's remember the variables:

mileage: how accurate is the odometer/hubodometer you are using? Or the accuracy of ours, the advice givers, for that matter?
fuel: are you starting out full to the top? are you filling it up, parked level, front to rear, and side to side, everytime?
using a gauge: how do you know whether the gauge/sender unit is reading in a linear fashion?
speed? a great big variable!
parasites: generator, Webasto, and whatever else that takes fuel out of the tank.

Some of the fuel consumption claims that are out of the ordinary are usually traced back to flawed distance measuring devices, or inconsistant tank filling.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2006, 02:55:52 PM »

Some of the fuel consumption claims that are out of the ordinary are usually traced back to flawed distance measuring devices, or inconsistant tank filling.
happy coaching!
buswarrior

And, just plain wishful thinking. 
May I suggest that most bus conversion owners (not all, but most, Jerry L, Jack, Sean, and Gump could probably give mileage down to the "dots" ) don't use enough fuel, often enough to get an accurate idea of  fuel consumption.    Pro drivers get a good feeling for fuel consumption, but most us are doing a lot of "factoring" to arrive at fuel use numbers.   
Wonder if one of those marine style GPH meters (flowmeter) would work on a bus....or would it introduce another point of failure?  Reckon there's really no point.   Fuel stops ain't that far apart.  Excepting mechanical failure such as broken lines, leaks etc, there's no excuse for running out of fuel.  Priming the engine is Mr. Murphy's punishment for expecting 10 MPG!   Wink
 
JR
 
 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
belfert
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« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2006, 03:23:06 PM »

mileage: how accurate is the odometer/hubodometer you are using? Or the accuracy of ours, the advice givers, for that matter?
fuel: are you starting out full to the top? are you filling it up, parked level, front to rear, and side to side, everytime?
using a gauge: how do you know whether the gauge/sender unit is reading in a linear fashion?
speed? a great big variable!
parasites: generator, Webasto, and whatever else that takes fuel out of the tank.

Some of the fuel consumption claims that are out of the ordinary are usually traced back to flawed distance measuring devices, or inconsistant tank filling.

Right now, I use a handheld GPS and it seems to be pretty darn accurate on trip distance.  I always fill to the brim.  My last fill I put in 81 gallons and the GPS showed 585 miles for MPG of 7.22 MPG.  I was a little disappointed on MPG, but I made a trip or two to C&J Bus Repair during rush hour and the rest of the tank I was going close to 70 MPH into a headwind.

Brian Elfert
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NJT5047
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« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2006, 05:15:13 PM »

Brian, when are you going to post some pix of your coach?  All I've seen is the oil filter adaptor. 
Your mileage is right where S60s fall when driven on flat highways.   Seems to be some correlation to moving a specific load at a specific speed.  No matter the engine.  The difference in high HP engines shows up when climbing mountains...they excel...but there's a cost in fuel economy.   Do you have an 11L or 12L 60?
S60 is a nice piece of work.   I've been looking (that's all too) at a boatload of 102D3s at Sawyers.  Don't know where they came from.  All with S60s and B500s.   They gotta come down a little in price yet.   
Wonder if they have fuel gauges? 
Also have a collection of H3-40s with 8V92s.     
JR
 
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JR Lynch , Charlotte, NC
87 MC9, 6V92TA DDEC, HT748R ATEC

"Every government interference in the economy consists of giving an unearned benefit, extorted by force, to some men at the expense of others.”

Ayn Rand
belfert
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« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2006, 07:57:39 PM »

Brian, when are you going to post some pix of your coach?  All I've seen is the oil filter adaptor. 
Your mileage is right where S60s fall when driven on flat highways.   Seems to be some correlation to moving a specific load at a specific speed.  No matter the engine.  The difference in high HP engines shows up when climbing mountains...they excel...but there's a cost in fuel economy.   Do you have an 11L or 12L 60?

I posted pictures of my bus a while back.  I guess I didn't add them to the pictures thread, but made a seperate one.

I have a 11.1L Series 60.  On a tank that is all highway without headwinds I get around 8 MPG.

Brian Elfert
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John E. Smith
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« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2006, 10:57:07 PM »

Got a new plan....going to install dry and loose...run the primer and fill the primary, tighten the primary, and run the pump until fuel runs out of the loose secondary and tighten it down.  How's this sound?  It sure as he11 won't be any nastier than trying to install full filters on an MC9...that's a poor location for fuel filters.     
I'm open to any ideas on this subject that may improve changing fuel filters.   Perhaps this time won't be so bad. 

Bad idea...

If you can back your bus over some sort of drop-off, changing filters is much easier... they were designed to be done in a pit.

Another little modification that makes changing filters easier is the installation of a shut off valve on each side of the filter head -- simply shut off the valves, remove old filter, prime & install new filter, open valves.  One tip... when you start the engine after changing filters, rev the engine to about 1800 rpm or so and hold it there.  That higher rpm (and higher fuel pressure) will allow the engine to make it over a small loss of prime when it hits an air bubble.  And having a valve on each side of the filter head makes sure that any air bubble will be a small one.

This modification has been standard on most -- if not all -- class 8 trucks with the DD engines for quite some time now.  All of my Internationals had it, and most of the Freightliners I drove for other people had it too.  Don't know why bus manufacturers never thought of it!
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« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2006, 10:19:41 AM »

Don't let Dallas fly IFR!!!
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buswarrior
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« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2006, 11:47:58 AM »

Hello.

Out on the road, fuel consumption is primarily a wind thing, not a weight thing.

Pushing the air is what takes the big power.

That is why fuel economy degrades so badly with an increase in speed.

In the apples versus oranges world,

4 strokes main claim to fuel economy fame is that they can make enough power in the engine's sweet spot to pull an overdrive gear at highway speed. The 2 strokes usually can't.

Horsepower is another word for fuel consumption. The 4104 get the fuel economy they do because they are small in frontal area, and they have little to no excess horsepower.

A roof raised, wide body coach with 450 HP..... will consume fuel.

Gearing is another minor key, and always a compromise,  to squeeze what you need from what you've got for where you go.

For fuel economy, smallest motor that will make it go, geared for your terrain, smallest frontal area, shed the awning and roof airs, install some air tabs on the rear sides....

For the truckers.... An old industry guru by the name Stan Kimberly used to write for the trade mags.... To move 80 000 lbs of 18 wheeler down the highway, anything bigger than about 280 HP was a waste of fuel. Just physics, so much to move the weight, so much to push the wind and a little more for a bit of gradeability when the road rises in front of you.

Wow, wonder what his HP calculation would have been for a 35 000 lb MCI?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
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