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Author Topic: The EMP proof Bus  (Read 7003 times)
jok
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« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2012, 01:05:48 PM »

I also thought it was a valid question. My interest was in protection in case of a solar flare.

I still wonder if the bays would be protected since my Prevost is said to have lead under the floors.

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« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2012, 02:43:30 PM »

Paul/Tom,

Don't mind the smoke the others blow. They really don't mean harm.

I enjoyed skimming the thread. Good info/thoughts here. Our bus is new enough, we are going to be done for, but oh well. If the others wouldn't have derailed the topic, it is very much on topic, IMHO.

FWIW

John
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« Reply #77 on: January 17, 2012, 08:54:20 PM »

I think its a valid question, but I don't think one can in a practical sense emp proof the whole thing, possibly parts of it while choosing the electrical equipment to shield carefully. But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.
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« Reply #78 on: January 19, 2012, 07:46:17 PM »

Right on cue.
http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/19/10192639-solar-blast-heading-our-way
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« Reply #79 on: January 19, 2012, 10:57:33 PM »

But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.

  I cant prepare for every problem or contingency and Im not going to try. But if we are far from home and something like this occurred, there are only two options. Make your stand where your at, or try to get home and deal with it there. I want to try to get home. If I come off sounding like a fruit cake because of my desire, so be it.

  If my daughter is at school, or a football game, and this occurred, I want her home. ASAP. There is no other option I will accept, I will walk if I have to. I'll borrow a horse, I'll ride a bike. But a running vehicle would be light years faster. If I sound crazy for wanting that, so be it.

  The CME event that happened in 1859 would likely fry the entire North American power grid, and more than likely destroy every transistor, diode and capacitor in the North America, if not most of the world, that wasnt buried underground and protected inside a faraday cage. People can roll their eyes and pretend its all fantasy all they want, but if that kind of event ever comes around again, at least with our current level of preparedness, its going to be lights out. 

 
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« Reply #80 on: January 20, 2012, 01:06:58 AM »

But, as posted earlier, if there was emp occurance, there would be many other problems besides my bus.

  I cant prepare for every problem or contingency and Im not going to try. But if we are far from home and something like this occurred, there are only two options. Make your stand where your at, or try to get home and deal with it there. I want to try to get home. If I come off sounding like a fruit cake because of my desire, so be it.

  If my daughter is at school, or a football game, and this occurred, I want her home. ASAP. There is no other option I will accept, I will walk if I have to. I'll borrow a horse, I'll ride a bike. But a running vehicle would be light years faster. If I sound crazy for wanting that, so be it.

  The CME event that happened in 1859 would likely fry the entire North American power grid, and more than likely destroy every transistor, diode and capacitor in the North America, if not most of the world, that wasnt buried underground and protected inside a faraday cage. People can roll their eyes and pretend its all fantasy all they want, but if that kind of event ever comes around again, at least with our current level of preparedness, its going to be lights out. 
 

I don't have a lot of time to do the research, but I haven't found anything that say's the electronics that are sheilded could not survive something the magnitude of the Carrington event. What have you read to give you that impression? In the case of your bus, what makes sense according to what I read, is to protect the key sensative electronic conponents in a box built for that purpose. The faraday does not seem to be the answer.

Right off the DOH Office of Radiation Protection:

What Can Be Done to Protect Electronics

There are two basic ways to protect or harden items against EMP effects. The first method is metallic shielding. Shields are made of a continuous piece of metal such as steel or copper. A metal enclosure generally does not fully shield the interior because of the small holes that are likely to exist.  Therefore, this type of shielding often contains additional elements to create the barrier. Commonly, only a fraction of a millimeter of a metal is needed to supply adequate protection.  This shield must completely surround the item to be hardened.

The second method, tailored hardening, is a more cost-effective way of hardening. In this method, only the most vulnerable elements and circuits are redesigned to be more rugged.  The more rugged elements will be able to withstand much higher currents.  This method has shown unpredictable failures in testing, though it is thought it may be useful to make existing systems less vulnerable.


There is a lot that is not clear to me on it. Would my alternator survive? Relays have a metal barrier around them, but are probably sensative to it. What about the skinner valve? It is electronic. When you consider a bus in general, would the steel/aluminum surrounding everything offer a level of protection?

It has been a while since I read the book, can you remember what kind of car his mother in law had that was uneffected by the EMP? For some reason I was thinking it was a 55 olds. I assume he based that biased on the science. If that is the case, I am not sure the older buses would be effected at all.

Anyone that would think you are a fruit cake because of this topic just don't understand the science. Looking at what happened in New Orleans during Katrina. A person would have to be a fruit cake NOT to see the danger ahead if the U.S. power grid was taken out. We live close to a refugee corridor, which is the last place we want to be. So for us, our bus is a way of escape in the CME event.

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Mike & Rosemarie
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« Reply #81 on: January 20, 2012, 01:31:05 AM »

well, essentially you are talking about any car that has a points system. Course, until mid sixties they had a generator instead of an alternator.  And then, there is the Model T Fords that didn't even have point system as the later cars had.. (got some ford coils around here somewhere)

Maybe we need Model T motorhomes... Grin
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« Reply #82 on: January 20, 2012, 10:04:14 AM »

OK, one more simple (I hope!) question:
If all it takes is for electronics to be shielded by a continuous piece of metal (per the DOH's first paragraph), the DDEC II in my bus is inside what appears to be a substantial steel box, sitting on top of the engine.   Would this be enough, or not?

John
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« Reply #83 on: January 20, 2012, 11:15:07 AM »

Sorry John, all the wires leading to and from the DDEC II box would have to be shielded as well as whatever they are connected to.
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« Reply #84 on: January 20, 2012, 12:13:49 PM »


  The EMP commission used a maximum of 25KV per meter as their premise for analyzing the impact. At that level they determined we would lose the power grid for a year or more, but most vehicles would survive, even newer computerized vehicles. The National Guard will eventually show up with generators and food and we'll begin to dig out. But my understanding is that 25KV is near the threshold between our vehicles surviving, and destroying all electronics. If a large weapon were detonated over Kansas shortly after we were struck by a strong solar flare, when the atmosphere is already highly charged, what would be the effect?  What if instead of 25KV per meter, it generated 50KV per meter, or higher. Throw up your hands and bury your head in the sand? That is the level of threat some people consider possible, and some consider likely. Something many times more powerful than the Carrington event.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

  That is why I started this thread with the assumption that all transistors, diodes, condensers (computers) are destroyed, no matter how well shielded. I wanted to start from that premise. That any of those components on your vehicle are destroyed, as well as any spares you carry, no matter how well protected, and there are none available anywhere within a 1000 miles in any direction. Your phones are destroyed, radios are destroyed, etc..

 To make it more difficult, lets assume light duty electric coils (ignition coils, solenoids, relays...) are also destroyed. So my starter solenoid is gone, I will have to jump the contacts to start the engine, I can do that. Skinner valve? Can it be manually controlled? Mechanical voltage regulator, I may be able to fix it, or can force it closed if need be to make it charge. And with a large battery bank I could run a long ways without charging. Can your DDEC engine be converted to mechanical? My generator is diesel, I can jump the starter, but will it produce AC power? What could be done to get it working?

  I guess it would kind of be that "Das Boot" moment. Can we get it back up and moving.

 
  

  

  
  
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« Reply #85 on: January 20, 2012, 05:24:34 PM »


  The EMP commission used a maximum of 25KV per meter as their premise for analyzing the impact. At that level they determined we would lose the power grid for a year or more, but most vehicles would survive, even newer computerized vehicles. The National Guard will eventually show up with generators and food and we'll begin to dig out. But my understanding is that 25KV is near the threshold between our vehicles surviving, and destroying all electronics. If a large weapon were detonated over Kansas shortly after we were struck by a strong solar flare, when the atmosphere is already highly charged, what would be the effect?  What if instead of 25KV per meter, it generated 50KV per meter, or higher. Throw up your hands and bury your head in the sand? That is the level of threat some people consider possible, and some consider likely. Something many times more powerful than the Carrington event.
  http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

  That is why I started this thread with the assumption that all transistors, diodes, condensers (computers) are destroyed, no matter how well shielded. I wanted to start from that premise. That any of those components on your vehicle are destroyed, as well as any spares you carry, no matter how well protected, and there are none available anywhere within a 1000 miles in any direction. Your phones are destroyed, radios are destroyed, etc..

 To make it more difficult, lets assume light duty electric coils (ignition coils, solenoids, relays...) are also destroyed. So my starter solenoid is gone, I will have to jump the contacts to start the engine, I can do that. Skinner valve? Can it be manually controlled? Mechanical voltage regulator, I may be able to fix it, or can force it closed if need be to make it charge. And with a large battery bank I could run a long ways without charging. Can your DDEC engine be converted to mechanical? My generator is diesel, I can jump the starter, but will it produce AC power? What could be done to get it working?

  I guess it would kind of be that "Das Boot" moment. Can we get it back up and moving.




I see where you are at now.

The skinner valve is just a TSO solenoid valve. You could just put a ball valve in it's place I would assume. However, I would be creative with a mechanical device so that you could shut the ball valve if you needed to in a pinch. In the scenario you described my assumption would that your genset would not work. An armature has a stuff going on in there, but I don't know enough about it to know if it could handle 50KV per meter.

If the bus had a manual transmission and you could push start it (or always park on a hill), an old bus with a detroit diesel... and it does not have spring breaks.... then I think the bus could get going fairly easy.



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« Reply #86 on: January 20, 2012, 06:05:02 PM »

Leaving aside for a moment what I believe to be the nonsense of actually doing any of this work, from a purely theoretical standpoint there are unfortunately no definitive answers to any of these 'Will this device survive?" type questions. If an electro-magnetic pulse is strong enough it will destroy any conductor, regardless of what it is or what it does.

If a magnetic field is created around a conductor, and then removed, a current will flow. The strength of that current depends upon the strength of the field, the speed with which it is removed, and the type of conductor - a long coil of wire (such as in a motor or alternator or solenoid) will obviously generate a much stronger current than a short length of steel bar for example.

Then there is the sensitivity of the device to that current - a fairly small current will damage a small transistor or diode for example, but it would take a big current to create a spark powerful enough to melt the points in an old-style distributor. And if the current is big enough the frame of the bus itself would heat up and melt.

So let's bear in mind that we're discussing lengths of string here, and until the mythical 'it' happens there is no way of really knowing the answers to any of these questions. And don't forget that we still need to figure out how to protect ourselves from those Smurfs.


Jeremy

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« Reply #87 on: January 20, 2012, 07:46:44 PM »

So let's bear in mind that we're discussing lengths of string here, and until the mythical 'it' happens there is no way of really knowing the answers to any of these questions. And don't forget that we still need to figure out how to protect ourselves from those Smurfs.


Well the experts at yahoo answers say this:

"An EMP will cause a surge in current in any electrical circuit. Usually, it's more than the circuit can handle, and it burns out. The human nervous system does use electrical impulses, but it doesn't operate in the same sense as a computer does. It's a common misunderstanding, seeing as nerves are often portrayed as wires.

Instead of carrying current like a wire, nerves operate more like a row of falling dominoes. Along the length of the nerve, there's an artificial imbalance of ions (sodium and potassium) that's kept out of balance by tiny pumps within the nerve. This imbalance in ions results in an imbalance in charge, which means there is a voltage difference between the inside and the outside of the nerve. Once the nerve fires, tiny channels in the surface open up, the ions rush through, and the charge flips. This flip causes the next channels down the line to open, and so on and so forth, and the signal is carried down the length of the nerve. Once it reaches the end, it causes the neuron to release chemicals that conduct the signal to the next neuron down the line.

Since neurons carry their signals chemically, rather than via current, (and nerves aren't set up like electrical circuits) an EMP wouldn't have any effect. BUT, since electrical charge is involved in conducting the signals, the nervous system is susceptible to electric shocks. The same is true of muscles, which, electrically, are very similar to nerves. A shock can trigger the ion channels on the surface of the cells to open up, making the nerve fire (or the muscle contract)."


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081204112159AAI09mV

I read somewhere else that the EMP could effect your brain if the nuke was detonated a few centimeters from your brain, but that is pure speculation.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2012, 12:26:08 AM »

Interesting thread.  "EMP proof bus" = diesel engine (MUI) with spring starter, hydraulic transmission, air brakes, air suspension, air wipers - "beta lights" for exterior lighting (zero electricity).

Post EMP bus = above + 2" steel armor, Gel-filled self sealing tires, 8" laminated bulletproof glass, an automatic fire suression system, 3" steel plow fitting on front, complete steel plating on undercarridge, 500Gal+ fuel tank (self-sealing, foam core tank).  Helmets for all inside, probably a bunch of kevlar/aramid stuff, food and water for a month, four Dillon Aeros on the outside corners operable by remote (with periscope view-finders), lot of ammo, fully auto rifles inside, with side-arms as back-up in close range.  Some knives and blunt objects for CQB/futility, little zip-lock baggies for poop - and a lot of trust in the people you put inside this thing... ('cause we've probably all seen that movie wher on of 'em goes ape $**+ and starts shooting everybody else) and lest we forget what happens when you go through the trouble of building this beast - a visit from the ATF, FBI, DHS (how many more acronyms to throw out...) all at the same time, and with tanks Roll Eyes

Of course, I think the potential effects are a bit over blown.  Yes, it's likely that the power grid will go down - mostly because it is a country sized antenna system.  That doesn't mean that all of your stuff will die.  Testing has shown that there are "failures" which are not catastrophic, but rather temporary.  For instance, if EMP stops a missle from firing when told to - that is a "failure", but if you can turn off the launcer and turn it back on an fire it, it was only temporary and did not destroy the device.  I equate this to running Microsoft Windows.  Anyone here ever seen or heard of the Blue Screen of Death?  Usually it is caused by a memory error from a single bit being off and an unexpected chunk of data pop out that the OS didn't know how to deal with.  What is the most common reply from a techie when they hear this?  "Did you try turning it off and back on again?" - this puts the system back into a "known state", so it runs fine.  Most people my find that after EMP, they get weird behavior occasionally, not total destruction.

I think that if EMP (Military calls it HEMP - High-altitude ElectroMagnetic Pulse) were to do a bit of damage, modern conveniences would be shut down yes - so you won't be able to watch House on your nice 65" LCD HDTV, but that doesn't mean that all police radios will stop working, properly built C4I infrasructure will die (Command, Control, Communications, Computers, and Intelligence), or other emergency systems will not be in place.  My dad was a safety officer for the county we live in (SF Bay Area), I have seen first hand that many of the best-practices set forth in Military HEMP and Sheilding/Grounding/Bonding manuals are already in place and "real emergency systems" are not overly reliant on computers (i.e. there are still manual over-rides).  I do conceive a heavy impact in the private sector, since they are not as well thought out, and spend more of their budget making systems that make more money rather than spending money protecting their money-making systems - some have decent continuity of business plans (big business catch phrase), but they rely on a good portion of global infrastructure being up and running somewhere.  Kind of the "why build it right if I can get another one somewhere else?" mentality.  Great if you can actually "get it somewhere else"...



To answer the question about protecting against EMP, yes a Faraday cage is great for stopping EM emissions.  Full protection requires a bit more work, and think if you have a phone completely wrapped in copper foil and welded arond all of the edges - how the hell do you use it?  There are ways to protect hardware without stopping it from doing its job, and on an individual level, such protection is not overly cost-prohibitive.  In fact many of the principals for "keeping EMP out" are rather similar to "keeping EMI in" in modern electronics.  The FCC and other regional agencies involved with RF have guidlines for how much radiation a device can inject into its environment.  The same methods for reducing these emissions are usefull for reducing HEMP suceptablity.  Filters on power and data cables, fiberoptics when possible (non-conductive).  Electrically continuous cabinet to enclose the entire assembly at "ground" to ensure that all radiated energy is returned to ground.  If vents are required, the size, shape quantity or penetrations can be manipulated to get the airflow required while stopping the penetration of RF.

Even a properly designed hallway can be used as a wave-guide-below-cuttoff filter to knock down penetration of RFI/EMI/HEMP.  If any of you are really serious about learning what you can do to reduce the damage to your stuff, I recommend looking up mil-assist docs and search the topics: "HEMP", "TEMPEST", "GROUNDING/BONDING/SHEILDING", and "C4I".  Most of the stuff is there and publicly available.  As with most things, the devil is in the details...  miss a crack in a weld on your shield enclosure in the wrong spot, and you might as well not have built it at all...

Cheers!

-T
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« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2012, 11:27:59 AM »

Yes, it's likely that the power grid will go down - mostly because it is a country sized antenna system.  That doesn't mean that all of your stuff will die.  Testing has shown that there are "failures" which are not catastrophic, but rather temporary.  Most people my find that after EMP, they get weird behavior occasionally, not total destruction.

Cheers!

-T

  You make a lot of good points, but your basing your opinions on the assumption the spike wont exceed the 25KV limit, as well as the assumption that the government is being honest regarding their testing and suggestion that 25KV was the max to be expected or that any equipment could handle it. Perhaps the only thing they are truthful about is the grid will go down, and that all our big transformers are manufactured in China with a 12 to 24 month backlog. Whoever allowed that to occur should be charged with criminal misconduct. There likely isn't a greater threat to National Security than our power grid, and we have a country threatening to attack us holding the keys to it.

  The EMP generated in 1962 in the Western Pacific, DESTROYED military grade tube type radios and other equipment that were grounded and shielded and bonded to military standards, up to 900 miles away. This was equipment that was built to withstand very high voltage spikes, short circuits, accidental reverse polarity, antenna shorts, this was much stronger built equipment than anything built for civilians then, and 100's, if not 1000's of times tougher than transistorized equipment built today. There was no turning them off and back on that was ever going to make them work, they were baked. To assume the mickey mouse radios and computer equipment in our vehicles will be safe as long as the key is turned off, because some government entity said so, could be a grave mistake.

 

 

   
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