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Author Topic: Replace Engine -- Good one?  (Read 4029 times)
Oonrahnjay
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« on: February 17, 2012, 10:56:58 AM »

OK, my existing engine is getting feeble and they're not very good in the first place.  It looks like it'll be time to change it out for a N. American engine soon.

What I have now (and what fits in the engine compartment) is a 42 - 44" long, 6 cylinder inline 4-stroke diesel.  A good thing is that it has a short driveshaft from the flywheel of the engine to the transmission, so a custom shaft with a flange to match the engine on one end and one to match the transmission on the other will be easy.

I guess that what's the best thing will be 4/6 cylinder engine, good service/reliability reputation, reasonable parts availability, reasonably available (truck/bus used parts sources), 4-stroke diesel; about 210/235 HP at a 1900 RPM cruise.  It would probably be good to avoid the usual "electronic vs reliable" wiwi match but it may be a factor that we can't avoid.  The "front end" of the existing engine is right at the vehicle sidewall/engine compartment so I'm afraid that we're practically limited to the 42-44" length overall.

http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f60/oonrahnjay/Bus/?action=view&current=O680LeftEnd.jpg
http://s45.photobucket.com/albums/f60/oonrahnjay/Bus/?action=view&current=000_0436.jpg

Any (CAT, DD, etc.) suggestions?
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 11:31:31 AM »

If all you need is 230 HP, wouldn't some lighter, cheaper engine, such as an International Navistar engine, or a 5.9-liter Cummins (In the truck version, available up to 225 HP. You do NOT want the Dodge pickup version for this application!)

I will be out where our buses are parked in a few hours. I can measure the 5.9 in our skoolie for you. How high can you go?
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
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« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 11:46:53 AM »

Bruce,
Is your present engine left- or right-rotation?   Don't some older British double-deckers such as Bristol FLF Lodekkas have left-turning Gardner or Bristol engines?   If you have a dropped-center rear axle it could get interesting!

Just wondering.
John   
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1990 Crown 2R-40N-552:  6V92TAC, DDEC II, HT740, Jake.      Hecho en Chino.     
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« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 12:04:55 PM »

Hey Bruce,

If you could find a nice CR92 Honda and didn't mind the high rpm, you would really be in business.  If not, then how about on of the 4 stroke Detroits?  Series 50s are becoming plentiful and cheap.  The 60 Series is top of the line in my book!  Can you use either?
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« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 12:10:34 PM »

S60 won't fit in the space he's got and its way overkill for the power he's looking for.  A DT466 would be a great match for the power he wants but maybe a hair too long at 45".  I can't find a physical dimension on a T444e right now but it should fit easily in that length - width might be an issue if that's tight.  The T444e is the International version of the Ford Powerstroke so there's maybe millions of them out there - 100s of thousands for sure.  No problem getting that power out of it reliably.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 12:49:07 PM »

I wouldn't put a Cummins 5.9 in there.   I would look at the Cummins 8.3 thousands have been built.   For the money I would look at the Detroit Series 50 takeouts from the transit buses.
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luvrbus
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« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 02:53:37 PM »

Series 50 would work in length I don't about height those engines are taller than they are long like 5 inches
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Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 03:30:48 PM »

 Series 50 would work in length I don't about height those engines are taller than they are long like 5 inches  

I can accept a lot of height.  I'll measure the crankshaft centerline to top of engine cover (it's a fiberglass "bubble" cover, so if necessary, it would be pretty easy to modify or extend).  The engine compartment front to back (i.e. to accommodate the width of the engine since it sits transverse) is pretty wide, too.

What about the reliability of the S50; if the balance shafts are rebuilt, are they dependable?  Are there non-electronic S50's?  I'm pretty sure that my engine turns clockwise -- right-hand as seen looking at the flywheel.   Are there "marine" conversions (camshaft etc) if the S50 needs to turn in the non-normal direction?

I'm pretty sure that a guy who parks next to me in the storage lot has a Gillig with an S50 that he's parting out for "mechanic's lien" prices.

I've been thinking that a smaller (i.e. not as big as an S60) "bus" engine is going to be a better bet than a big pickup engine.  Am I right about this?  It seems to me that the low end torque, reliability, RPM range, and fuel economy for something like an S50 will be better for what I need than something like a Powerstroke, right?

Thanks for the info
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 03:40:46 PM by Oonrahnjay » Logged

Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 04:25:29 PM »

For a bus, you need a heavy duty engine such as a Detroit. It will pull your 20 to 30 000 lbs bus all day, day after day and not break a sweat. And when it gers tired, you can rebuild it and put another half a million miles on it.

A pick up engine, such as the Powerstroke, is a disposable/throw away engine that would be struggling at it's limit all the time. We pull a 18000 lbs horse trailer with one in a F350, and it just doesn't hold up.

JC
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JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 04:48:41 PM »

Hey Bruce,
If you could find a nice CR92 Honda and didn't mind the high rpm, you would really be in business. 

Yeah, I would mind the rpm - I'd have to go to a 30:1 rear axle!  Hope you and Gloria are OK.   BH
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2012, 08:00:41 PM »

I wouldn't put a Cummins 5.9 in there.   I would look at the Cummins 8.3 thousands have been built.   For the money I would look at the Detroit Series 50 takeouts from the transit buses.

8.3 would be my choice as well.
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« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2012, 10:22:46 PM »

I think a good question to ask is how many more miles are you going to put on your bus?  A good Cummins ISB 6.7 with common rail fuel injection will be the smallest and easiest to install.  They are available up to 325hp and 800lb/ft torque.  The 6.7 has a projected engine life of around 400,000 miles-which is actually longer then most Detroit 2 strokers could go before overhaul.
I agree that the Cummins 8.3 mechanical with inline fuel injection pump is just about the most reliable medium sized truck engine ever built.  I believe they were available up to 280hp and 860lb/ft torque.  The newer ISC with electronic common rail fuel injection is available up to 370hp and 1050lb/ft torque.  The larger 8.9 liter ISL, which is the same block is available up to 450hp and 1250lb/ft torque-which is also the highest the Allison 3000MH will take.  The ISC/ISL are a projected 500,000mi engine before overhaul.
The Series 50 is a very reliable engine that can put out up to 350hp and 1,100lb/ft torque.  The only two bads about it, you have to run soft engine mounts because of the higher vibration at idle, and the two balance shafts need to be replaced every 300,000 miles, whether they need it or not.  A marine version was not made, nor an industrial version.  The S50 was used in buses, and Freightliner's FL106. The S50, like the S60, is a projected 1 million mile engine.
International's 466 is good (stay away from their V-8's-to many were bad to find the good ones), but I don't like the fact that the front cover on the 466 has only one little gasket separating the water from oil.
Stick with the Cummins 6.7 liter ISB (which I think is plenty of power and rated up to 50,000lbs in truck use), or the ISC/ISL Cummins 8.3/8.9, which both are rated up to 65,000lbs.  Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2012, 10:24:38 PM »

 8.3 would be my choice as well.  

Here is the item on the first page on the 8.3 liter engine:
"Engine Specs--  The 8.3 diesel is a four-stroke internal-combustion engine and has 540 propshaft horsepower at a maximum rate of 2,600 revolutions per minute."  That's *way* more horsepower than I need -- or that my transmission will handle.  (But that's a marine engine.)
On the other hand, another website says that the engine, as a 1994 mechanical 8.3L model is available with-- horsepower 210 225 & torque@1300rpm 605 660 (respectively) I'm confused.   210 or 225 hp at about 600-650 lb/ft of torque should work fine, though.

Also, a website lists the Cummins ISB 6.7 -- hp @ rpm/350 @ 3013;  Peak Torquelb-ft/ 650; GovernedSpeed/ 3013 RPM.   Again, way more power, torque and RPM than will work for me. 

TomC - is the Cummins ISB 6.7 with common rain fuel injection an "electronic" engine?

Many thanks - please keep the info coming.   BH,  NC USA
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 11:16:55 PM by Oonrahnjay » Logged

Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2012, 10:35:36 PM »

The 540hp version is for marine use only (key here is "propshaft horsepower" as in propeller for a boat)-there's no way you could have a big enough radiator to cool that.  The other is more accurate.  That's what's nice about he electronic engines-they are much higher rated.  But you can't beat the reliability of the mechanical engine. Good Luck, TomC
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Tom & Donna Christman. '77 AMGeneral 10240B; 8V-71TATAIC V730.
Oonrahnjay
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« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2012, 08:09:09 AM »

A Google search isn't helping me ... are there "non-electronic" early-model-year versions of the Series 50 engine available on the "used engine" market?
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
1976 Daimler (British) Double-Decker Bus; 34' long
6-cyl, 4-stroke, Leyland O-680 engine

(New Email -- brucebearnc@ (theGoogle gmail place) .com)
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