Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
September 01, 2014, 05:04:22 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: 500 Members as of May 5th, 2006.  Smiley  3,499 Members as of October 21, 2012 Cheesy

   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: riveting questions  (Read 2875 times)
Uglydog56
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 269


I'd rather be lucky than good.




Ignore
« on: March 03, 2012, 03:58:57 PM »

I am plugging the holes left this weekend from removing the two furnaces, the rv fridge, and relocating the hot water heater so it isn't directly under my head while sleeping.  Questions:

1.  I have some body seam sealer left over from my race car.  Is this adequate to seal with between panels before I rivet?

2.  All I could find locally is 3/16" aluminum rivets.  This isn't structural work, so is this good enough?

3.  Between the roof raise, reskinning to remove side windows, door relocation, and now this, I'm starting to get kind of a patchwork quilt thing going on.  While I don't particularly want to get into replacing large panels, I also strongly want to avoid the homemade skoolie look.  I will be painting this summer which should help.  Lots of rivets/panels: Character or craptastic?

Thanks,
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 04:24:21 PM by Uglydog56 » Logged

Rick A. Cone
Silverdale, WA
66 Crowny Crown "The Ark"
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 04:06:06 PM »

International Bus Parts in Florida make all the different styles of siding.

www.ibpindustries.com/  (though, their website seems to be down at this moment)

It doesn't hurt to call and see what certain panel pieces might cost?

You might be surprised?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
crown
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 04:09:23 PM »

 hi rick post some picture so we can see what your talking about maybe some one can give you a better way of doing
it    john owner of a  57 crown
Logged

john
 57 crown
 costa rica
Uglydog56
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 269


I'd rather be lucky than good.




Ignore
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 05:24:36 PM »

Okay here some pics as requested.  It's hard to get close enough to see detail, but far enough to give perspective.  Buses are kind of big.  Remember that once it warms up a little more, this will all be white with some brown/olive/scarlet stripes to break it up a little.  Apologies for my crude editing.



In this pic, the two left arrow point to the suction and discharge for the insta-hot I removed, both of which are just covered with furnace tape and plugged with foam.  The top right is where the water pump, filter, and fill connection used to be.  I already moved the water pump next to the water heater down in the bottom right corner in the "trunk" so I didn't have to listen to it cycle.  So I'm going to eliminate another air leak and just put in one of those external fill funnel thingy's like my travel trailer has.  Below that, there used to be a door (fell off like 10 miles after buying it) that gave access to a sliding tool tray thing.  The tray is going away because my grey tank is going there, so I'm just covering it.



The two arrows in this pic point to two vents, one of which was factory and one wasn't.  But the ductwork going to the round one is gone and I don't know what the heck it did anyway.  I think the right one was a sweaty unders cooler for the driver while running up and down the mountains at yellowstone.  Both are plugged underneath with pieces of polyisocyrunate.  So I'm removing them and covering the holes, so I can insulate the entire front bulkhead (currently none at all).



The curb side is the worst.  It already has several smaller pieces from during the original reskinning.  The two left arrows the the holes for the rear furnace (permanently removed) and the old water heater (it's getting relocated to the back bottom curbside corner).  The next three are the fridge roof vent, fridge rear access, and front furnace (permanently removed).  Additionally, I have to add a vent panel for the front mini-split in the right front corner where the original door was, and an access door between the current door and curbside parlor window for the chimney pipe (wife wants a wood stove).  So it's getting real busy real fast.

I want an airtight well insulated bus when I'm done, with as little beverly hillbilly as possible, but I'm on a time and money budget just like everyone else.  Thanks for looking.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2012, 05:29:02 PM by Uglydog56 » Logged

Rick A. Cone
Silverdale, WA
66 Crowny Crown "The Ark"
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 05:48:38 PM »

Oh, ok, I've got it now!

As long as your "patches" have carefully spaced riveting, matching the spacing on other nearby rivet lines, once painted, I don't think anything will look wrong.

stay proportional, double/triple/half as many as the nearby line.

The eye is attracted to things outside a pattern, maintain a pattern, it goes invisible.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
crown
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 806




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2012, 06:19:57 PM »

 ok lets start with the holes up front under windshild my crown had the same one on drivers side i cut a patch about 1 1/2 ''
 bigger and used sickflex to bond to inside then cut a second patch same size as the hole and bonded it to the first patch  with the sickflex a little bondo [ one on top of other ]
and nice patch cant tell there was ever a hole there ouick and simple  if you can get to the inside on the other small holes
do the same john
Logged

john
 57 crown
 costa rica
Uglydog56
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 269


I'd rather be lucky than good.




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: March 03, 2012, 08:25:37 PM »

Thanks John and buswarrior for your ideas. Going to actually drill holes and apply rivets tomorrow.
Logged

Rick A. Cone
Silverdale, WA
66 Crowny Crown "The Ark"
bottomacher
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 277




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2012, 05:51:30 AM »

If you're using pop rivets from a hardware store, you need to know that they're not waterproof unless they have a closed end. Not common in retail stores.
Logged
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2012, 06:16:09 AM »

I agree, keep things proportional, if you can cover 2 holes with one larger piece it is less noticeable.  Once painted and from a few feet away most people will not notice unless it is out of proportion, different type or spacing of rivet etc.  JIm
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2012, 09:43:35 AM »

Installing a new vent in the hole in front of the driver gives you options for airflow while going down the road.

I can't find a decent picture of one, with the proper spring loaded door and screen and seal, so when it is closed, it is closed.

Similar to the ones on the sides of a big truck sleeper cab.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
Fred Mc
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 367




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2012, 09:58:41 AM »

If you are using pop rivets get the brand "pop"  in 3/16 as they have a mushroom cap that makes them waterproof and looks like the original rivets. As far as I know ther "pop" brand is the only one who makes these caps and they are NOT compatible with other brands.
Logged
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3505





Ignore
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2012, 01:50:32 PM »

I wouldn't use seam sealer between Al panels since it is probably thick enough to allow the panels to loosen later on. However, if they are not structural this may not matter. I would just spray a light coat of zinc chromate or nothing at all.

A riveted patch with properly spaced rivets will be stronger than the original but must be absolutely tight with each rivet completely filling the hole.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2012, 03:18:40 PM »

  I disagree. Seam sealer was found on every Bus we dismantled from the roof to the side panels. I have no clue exactly what it was but it was black and still semi soft even on 40 year old Buses. Best guess is butyl rubber like they used on windshields years back.

  If you use Clecos you'll get a better looking job.
Logged
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2012, 03:32:16 PM »

You have to use something as a seam sealer, the water WILL get through between the sheets.

And, I second the clecos vote, gives you lots of time to get everything set just right and the panel snugged up all the way around before setting that first rivet.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3505





Ignore
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2012, 02:53:47 PM »

No properly riveted lap seam is going to leak water. I never use sealer.

I can't imagine doing any riveting job without clecos unless it happens to be , very very small.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
Scott Bennett
Scott & Heather MCI-9
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1273


Scott & Heather


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2012, 03:57:56 PM »

I second the motion that suggests once it's painted it will hide the rivets somewhat. Tis true. I hated the look of our riveted nude aluminum. Then once it was painted, the rivets "disappeared". 
Logged

Scott & Heather
1984 MCI9 6V92-turbo with 9 inch roof raise & conversion in progress.
http://www.scottmichaelbennett.com/p/our-bus.html
˙ǝɯoɔlǝʍ suoıʇɐuop ˙snq ʍǝu ɐ pǝǝu ʎlqɐqoɹd ll,ǝʍ 'sıɥʇ pɐǝɹ uɐɔ noʎ ɟı
lostagain
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1525


MC5C




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2012, 04:51:29 PM »

What is "Clecos" ?

JC
Logged

JC
Invermere, BC
1977 MC5C, 6V92/HT740
FloridaCliff
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2458


"The Mighty GMC"




Ignore
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2012, 05:14:37 PM »

What is "Clecos" ?

JC


Cleco's are temporary rivets that you use to hold your work in place.  they have a special tool that removes and inserts them.

Here's a picture;

http://www.rivetsonline.com/cleco.html

Have fun

Cliff
Logged

1975 GMC  P8M4905A-1160    North Central Florida

"There are basically two types of people. People who accomplish things, and people who claim to have accomplished things. The first group is less crowded."
Mark Twain
blank
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1929




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2012, 06:42:54 PM »

  And heres a picture of clecos being used on a wing. Without them the metal will almost always have a ripple.

  I am probably in the lower percentile, but I like the look of rivets on a Bus.
Logged
buswarrior
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3571


'75 MC8 8V71 HT740




Ignore
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2012, 09:36:04 PM »

gus, how are you going to get a "properly riveted seam" on an ancient piece of commercial cast-off like our busnut bus conversions?

That's a great theory, but the reality is we're riveting in waves of corrosion induced swelling and years worth of panel stretching collisions and other rot.

If a busnut uses sealer, pretty hard to have a leak.

If a busnut doesn't use sealer, and it does leak, what is the remedy then?

Like we don't have enough to do, to go back and do over our screw ups?

happy coaching!
buswarrior
Logged

Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3505





Ignore
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2012, 02:46:02 PM »

Good point!!

However, just make sure the sealer isn't slopped on too thick like on auto body seams. If it is there is no way the rivets will hold due to so much bus movement. What good is a water tight seam if the rivets shear?
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
bevans6
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4598


1980 MCI MC-5C




Ignore
« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 04:29:37 AM »

If you can get the 3/16" aluminium rivets with a closed end, use them.  Pre-drill and deburr the holes on the exterior panel.  I personally don't use cleco's because I can't afford them in all the sizes I use, I use 1/2" no 6 self tapping screws to attach the exterior panel, then drill and rivet, then remove the screws and drill and rivet those holes.  If this was my bus, I would strongly consider using structural double sided tape to attach the panels instead of rivets.  My new trailer's walls are put together with double sided tape, looks great and is very strong.  

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3M-Industrial/Adhesives/Product/Bonding-Tapes/VHB-Tape/

Brian
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 04:32:34 AM by bevans6 » Logged

1980 MCI MC-5C, 8V-71T from a M-110 self propelled howitzer
Spicer 8844 4 speed Zen meditation device
Vintage race cars -
1978 Lola T440 Formula Ford
1972 NTM MK-4 B/SR
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3505





Ignore
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 12:23:30 PM »

I don't have many clecos but have four or five sizes, you don't need many for patching because you can just do a few holes at a time. The whole idea is to keep the metal from moving so the holes stay aligned. Small screws are just as good as long as they are smaller than the rivet size.

Very large panels like in that wing photo are a different matter, That is hard and precise work and I'm too lazy for that!! Really good riveting is an art and I'm far from that stage.

I also prefer solid fill pop rivets for non-aircraft work and sometimes for aircraft work that is not structural. Actually, there are structural solid fill pop rivets but affordable ones are not approved for aircraft use. Hollow pop rivets are a waste of time on buses because of vibration.

Bucking solid rivets is one of my least favorite forms of recreation.
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
Rick59-4104
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 310





Ignore
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 02:08:09 PM »

 I had about a 5" round hole needed covered on a 1948 aluminum travel trailer and ended up putting a fake access door over the hole complete with rivets and hinge, intended later to come back and install a box behind it for a small storage area. Looked like it came from the factory that way after I finished. Kind of a "if you can't hide it disguise it solution"

 Was a lot easier than trying to make it appear the hole was never there.


Rick
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 02:14:11 PM by Rick59-4104 » Logged

NW Arkansas
1959 GM 4104  No. 4115
1972 Grumman Kurbmaster Stepvan Conversion
1957 Airstream 13 panel Overlander
jjrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2313

MCI5C/N Ft Myers FL




Ignore
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 06:29:38 AM »

The key is "properly riveted"   I among others did not have the training or experience to do a proper job! Neither I nor my helper had any experience buck riveting when we started!

 I used : Dap 27062 Butyl-Flex Gutter and Flashing Caulk it is a butyl rubber product.  Too thick and it leaves bumps between rivets, too thin and it will not seal, somewhere in between.  JIm
Logged

Remember, even at a Mensa convention someone is the dumbest person in the room!

http://photobucket.com/buspictures

http://photobucket.com/buspictures
gus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3505





Ignore
« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 01:43:47 PM »

Installing an inspection plate instead of a patch is a very good idea and often used. The main thing is that the hole be reenforced around the inside edge if it is on a structural panel and this is a lot of work.

Sometimes you can get away without the reenforcing metal - if it buckles you know you didn't!!
Logged

PD4107-152
PD4104-1274
Ash Flat, AR
AeroFluffy
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4




Ignore
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2012, 08:06:22 PM »

If you're still looking for rivets, Cherry-N type rivets are blind rivets used in some homebuilt aircraft that are (technically) non-structural and have a closed-end, so they'll be a bit more watertight than open-ended rivets. For rivets that can be used structurally (or at least don't have a hollow core) there are Cherry-Q rivets, as well as a few types of rivets meant for aircraft (but are fairly expensive). The material that the rivet is made of should be the same or comparable to what your are joining (so aluminum rivets with aluminum sheet metal, or stainless steel rivets with stainless steel). For aircraft sheet metal work, the rule of thumb for spacing rivets is to locate the center of the rivet hole at least twice the diameter of the rivet from the edge of the sheet, and rivets should be spaced so adjacent rivets or rows of rivets are at least four times the diameter of the rivets apart. Another rule of thumb I've read is that the diameter of the rivet should be 4 times the thickness of the sheet but no more than 3/16".
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 08:17:02 PM by AeroFluffy » Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!