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Author Topic: What is with all the Prevost engine fires??  (Read 2701 times)
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« on: March 07, 2012, 03:58:12 PM »

Today Jerrod Niemann lost his bus.   Here is the link,  go and look at the Twitter picture.   I guess they weren't to happy.    http://www.theboot.com/2012/03/07/jerrod-niemann-tour-bus-fire/

Then there is Lee Brice fire.   He was actually sleeping.  

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/region_southeast_valley/mesa/country-singers-tour-bus-catches-fire-in-mesa


Randy was actually suppose to be with Jerrod.   However, he was having his first baby.   This would have been his 2nd bus fire in a year!

http://www.theboot.com/2011/03/09/randy-houser-bus-fire/

It's really hard to see what the real problem is.   It would be nice to see the NTSB (edit) reporting on these accidents.   The insurance companies keep these things to themselves.   It's either a electical/alternator fire, fuel fire or a turbocharger exhaust manifold fire.  
« Last Edit: March 07, 2012, 04:49:58 PM by Zeroclearance » Logged
belfert
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2012, 04:41:19 PM »

Why would the TSA investigate bus fires?  The TSA is responsible for the security of travel and mostly known for dealing with security for airplane travel.  The NTSB and/or the NHTSA would be the more appropriate agencies to investigate such fires.  The NTSB is most known for investigating airplane accidents, but they also investigate surface transportation accidents too.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2012, 07:27:03 PM »

Maintenance, maintenance, maintenance.

And historically, the highest engine room temperatures that the industry has ever seen.

You must be plugged in to the manufacturers service bulletin system and apply updates as they are brought out.

Nobody with a brain purchases one of these without a fire suppression system installed at the factory.

Exhaust wraps, pipe wraps, vigilant for any signs of hose deterioration, vigilance for careful and ongoing physical support for electrical cables.

Hydraulic lines? Consider switching to engine oil, it has a higher ignition temp than tranny or hydraulic oil.

Coaches have been lost to pin hole oil leaks in rubber hoses spraying onto hot exhaust parts.

The large electric cables to the alternator have mechanically failed due to lack of strain and weight relief, shorting on bodywork, and triggering the fire.

Spilled oil, cleaned up, engine room steam cleaned regularly, oil leaks fixed RIGHT NOW.

Anyone who ignores the engine room is at great risk of burning it down.

Engine room = surgical cleanliness.

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2012, 08:04:35 PM »

My friends at Arrow says 1.2 buses are lost to fires every week have no idea what a 1.2 bus looks like lol but they have lost 2 H-45 to fires in the last year and the engine compartments in their buses are spotless .

They were installing a fire suppression system in a H-45 today at the shop today their Serta's came with one for the engine and passengers compartment looked expensive but how do you put a price on safety or life

good luck
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2012, 09:32:07 PM »

  I saw an old 59 Chevy erupt in flames when the oil line to the external oil filter broke and it started spraying hot oil on the exhaust. Cool thing was the engine ran out of oil and locked up before he got the car stopped.

  Like said, fix your leaks, keep it clean and maintain. If anything looks amiss, fix it.
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2012, 11:43:31 PM »

"Hydraulic lines? Consider switching to engine oil, it has a higher ignition temp than tranny or hydraulic oil."

Installing engine oil in my B500???   Installing engine oil in the Prevost designed power steering?   

Buswarrior,  I have all the engine updates, I have the alternator brackets and cables secured per the service bulletins.   All those buses that I linked to are VERY recent and those are Newer Buses>   2002 and newer.   I think I saw only one EGR 14ltr.  My bus has the fire detector in two places over the engine.   

I purchase a pail of FireAde 2000.   It might be wise to build a 20 or 30 gallon fire supression system. 

Clifford, do your friends have an idea as to what the cause is?   Years ago the 50DN was to blame.   Most of the buses have been changed over to dual T1's..    The fuel system is in steel lines.  The suction lines are in braided aeroquip/parker lines.   High amperage cables are secured to the frame rails and diagonal framing.   

I did install exhaust wrap for my new turbo and manifold and downpipe this past summer.   I even installed the fire blanket on top of my valve cover.   I eliminated alot of engine heat.

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muddog16
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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2012, 05:13:42 AM »

When I started thinking bus, many years ago, I looked at so many photo's one of the items I've always thought about was how with the engine compartment so cluttered do these monsters breath and stay cool......I've tried to keep my engine compartment simple and functional, heat wrap is a "must", not just the cross over area (8V92) to the turbo but the exhaust piping and the muffler.  I had a friend who was a maintenance insulator where I worked, this guy made the best blankets I've ever seen, they were for heat and noise, the man was a perfectionist and he made me a believer in controlling heat and noise.  Not only is the engine compartment a problem, but some of these converters (the pros) jammed 20 lbs of $#!% in a 10 lb generator compartment. I've noticed that many of the Busnuts have added cooling fans for their generators.

On the Prevosts they add pans under the exhaust and close most of the breathing room circulation in and around the bottom of the engines, I'm sure they have a good reason, just look at the new cars and trucks.........they are nightmares no room to work or breath, in the 70's you could almost sleep beside the engine under some hoods!   I personally think the problems stem from lack of air movement around the engine.  In their haste to give you a zillion options and toys.....they've ( all bus converters) created fire hazards waiting to ruin your day and wallet! 

But as a nut with a bus.....I'm going to do my best to eliminate that.....(hopefully) I will be successful.    The Kiss Theory works!
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Pat

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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2012, 05:37:58 AM »

Interesting thread for sure!

I am starting a new one, so as not to detour this one, on engine heat.
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Dr. Steve, San Juan del Río, Querétaro, Mexico, North America, Planet Earth, Milky Way.
1981 Dina Olímpico (Flxible Flxliner clone), 6V92TA Detroit Diesel
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100 miles North West of Mexico City, Mexico. 6,800 feet altitude.
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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2012, 05:59:49 AM »

have real good picture but again my abilities have failed.   Bob
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 06:10:03 AM by robertglines1 » Logged

Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2012, 06:03:42 AM »

AreoGell and lead are best 2 products to use in the bedroom under the floor for engine heat and noise control,lead first AreoGell over the lead

good luck
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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2012, 06:06:01 AM »

All new MCI coaches come standard with a fire suppression system.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2012, 06:16:52 AM »

I bumped my old thread up so one can see actual pictures from minor fire to major fire. Electrial cable to metal frame.      Cry
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Bob@Judy  98 XLE prevost with 3 slides --Home done---last one! SW INdiana
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« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2012, 07:33:22 AM »

Yes, and no.

Leave your fancy Transmission alone.

Hydraulic system, I was thinking those coaches with hydraulic cooling fans, as well as the power steering.
Often one big system, and the large tank is in the engine room too.

10W40 works very nicely in Big Transit here. I can't remember the numbers, but the engine oil gives you a good number of degrees more room before it will catch fire versus hydraulic oil.

And the other variable in the entertainment coach world, the coach doesn't see the shop very often. The level of inspection and attention may be quite a bit less than a formal line run/charter company.

happy coaching!
buswarrior


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« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2012, 07:43:38 AM »

have real good picture but again my abilities have failed.   Bob

Robert,

Put the picture posting on the agenda for when we visit........ Wink

Cliff
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1975 GMC  P8M4905A-1160    North Central Florida

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« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2012, 07:49:37 AM »

Yes, and no.

Leave your fancy Transmission alone.

Hydraulic system, I was thinking those coaches with hydraulic cooling fans, as well as the power steering.
Often one big system, and the large tank is in the engine room too.

10W40 works very nicely in Big Transit here.  (snip)

    Yeah, I was fighting this with my bus.  The "factory recommendations" originally published for my bus are out of date even in England -- even there, they can't get lubes that "meet" the quoted standards; they have to check with oil companies to get the updated standard.  The originally published spec for my bus was 10W-30.  Mobil says that Delvac (conventional) 10W-30 is a perfect oil for my bus; Shell agrees for Rotella (conventional) 10W-30.  Both say that there is minimal real-world difference between their 10W-30 and the much more available 15W-40 and the 15W-40 will work fine, too.  

     I was talking to a mechanic who grew up working on these buses in England; he's been in Philadelphia for the past 12 or so years maintaining a fleet of buses like mine there.  He says that they run 15W-40 in the engine, transmission, power steering, etc.  Only exception is EP gear lube in the rear axle.  He says that they've never had a lube related problem.

     Sure makes it easier.   FWIW

BH  NC  USA
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Bruce H; Wallace (near Wilmington) NC
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« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2012, 07:55:51 AM »

Zero is on the right page the C-4 oils are not approved for the Allison B-500 or any new Allison models


good luck
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« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2012, 09:49:59 AM »

Muddog,  with the newer XL's and H3's..   The airflow from the radiator is directed right to the engine.   The exhaust and turbocharger is 14 inches away from the fan blade.  Ken posted a video of his 14ltr install.   I am seriously considering installing a Horton 2 stage fan.   Having constant airflow over the engine is a plus.
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« Reply #17 on: March 08, 2012, 10:33:32 AM »

Anyone with a later Prevost like Ken and Bob..   Might want to take a look at this product.

http://fireade.com/products/view/FireAde2000

I have recently purchased a 19ltr pail.   I am going to mix it at 6%.    As a community we should design a fire supression system.   We have some smart engineers on this forum by trade.

I was thinking that since we have a steady supply of air pressure on board, a small pressure air tank from Harbour freight plumbed into another refillable water tank 20 to 30 gallons in size should work.     The tech department at Fireade told me that 2 large fire extinguishers have put out engine fires of this size.    The valves can be both electrical and manual release.    AS a side note, the tech guys said that you could run pressure tests and system tests on your engine every 60 days and have the cleanest (soap and water) engine on the road.  At a 10% mix you have a high FOAM application.   
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« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2012, 12:29:08 PM »

Well, for the umpteenth time we have a call to design a fire suppression system.

I designed and have marketed just such a unit for the past 8 years.  Been a vendor at most of the FMCA and bus related events.

At the end of this month I will be closing the business and filing bankruptcy.

Anyone want a good tax right-off business?  Huh

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #19 on: March 08, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »

Jim.  I'm sorry about the status of your business.   All of us that are self-employed have had to make changes.   Sometimes very painful.    A suggestion would be to offer engineering design prints and sell them on Ebay.   The trend is to purchase components one at a time and build your own systems.   This isn't limited to just fire safety items.   From homemade split system A/C heatpumps to XYZ..
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« Reply #20 on: March 08, 2012, 01:32:06 PM »

The product I designed was the detection side of the system.  I out-purchased the suppression side of the system. 

I will retain the "intellectual property" and the right to sell my product. 

I am setting up a webpage that will mainly be a contact page for folks who are interested in the detection side of the system.  My focus will be industrial customers.  In the past few years I have developed a small industrial market and that is what I will aim for.

The RV and Bus market is a terrible place to try to sell most any product and has been for the past few years. 

I will also consider being a supplier to a distributor, but I won't hold my breath.

I developed a new detection system for a company who wants to market it into some large industrial markets.  However, that is, at best, a long term project.  The system passed every test that the customer (and his customer) wanted, but the economy is just not conducive to companies buying "optional" equipment.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #21 on: March 08, 2012, 02:16:18 PM »

I purchased a Halon 1301 system for my GMC engine compartment, it is an older NASCAR unit and it wasn't too expensive. I am also moving the exhaust muffler from under the wooden floor and I am replacing it with a 2 into 1 muffler and putting it vertical next to the clutch/transmission. To get the pipes up I bought two turbo manifolds to run the exhaust up and over the motor to the muffler. I will post pictures when I start. I am doing this because of all I have read about underfloor fires on 4905's.....plus it will sound a bit throatier with this muffler......custom bike builder thing I guess
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Tracy Spencer
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 02:36:01 PM »

Halon is an excellent fire suppression agent in a ***CLOSED*** compartment.  Our engine compartments have huge amounts of air flow and the halon agent could easily be disbursed before the fire is suppressed.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
’85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »

Tracy, the only problem with Halon is that it can react and turn into Phosgene (spell)  which is a deadly gas.  I am in no way saying that your system is wrong.    There might be newer and better products that one can use.
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« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 04:45:34 PM »

Thank you for the input, there maybe better stuff than the Halon 1301, I figure it is better than nothing at this point, plus I have built a spray bar to better disperse it. I plan to wrap the exhaust after I fab it up and weld it, so as to lower the engine compartment temperature. I can and will seek the best possible situation and also glean from you all's experiences to do so! Please do not hesitate to give your input because it is always appreciated! I have learned very well from being wrong in the past, learned "Know it all's" learn very little!

Thanks Tracy
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Tracy Spencer
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1976 P8M-4905A #1363 (under conversion)
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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 07:36:11 AM »

If you want ideas, swing 'round the local transit or coach garage and get someone to show you the current, from the factory systems.

Natural gas powered coaches were the first that went this way because of the gas paranoia.

sacrificial wire loops, optical sensors, alarms to warn the driver, automatic and manual activation from the driver's seat.

Extinguisher piped in steel to multiple nozzles strategically aimed, large bottle often mounted behind the tail lights in the rear corner.

No need for the busnut to re-invent the wheel, it is already round.

And as noted by Jim, the evidence is clear, we busnuts aren't likely to install one, a system has been readily available from one of our own for years.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
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