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Author Topic: I broke the cardinal rule of sharing ... 24 volt to 12 volt relay circuit...  (Read 3583 times)
Hartley
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« on: October 29, 2006, 01:16:19 PM »

Here is what I got,,

Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:48 AM
Subject: Trailer relay diagram on BNO


> Hi Dave.
>
> I came across this link: http://www.rvbus.net/24-12trl.jpg in a post you
> made on BNO in this thread:
> http://www.busnut.com/bbs/messages/11/15445.html?1161874578
>
> First, let me say that I am really glad my circuit worked for you, and I
> appreciate your confidence in sharing it with others.  The reason I
> posted this diagram on my SmugMug site in the first place was to help
> out other bus nuts.
>
> That being said, I would appreciate credit where credit is due, so I
> would like to ask you, please, to remove my proprietary image from your
> web site.  You can feel free to continue to post the diagram on the BBS,
> just use the original link to the image on my SmugMug site, here:
> http://odyssey.smugmug.com/photos/4750590-O.gif
>
> Thanks, and also thanks for all the assistance you have been providing
> on the boards.
>
> -Sean
> http://OurOdyssey.US
> http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
> http://Odyssey.SmugMug.com
>

Here is my response... Geeezzzz Guys...

Credit was given as your name is on the image,
However since you seem to want to be arbitrary on the matter
I will remove the image and note such on all of the BBS systems
that you have complained accordingly.

A small note: I used your diagram only for Others to see, Not myself, I found that
you had virtually copied a circuit that I came up with from general knowlege
from 1980 when I started building relay based tailight adapters.
Obviously when I said copied, I didn't patent the design because it
is in the public domain as it always has been.

Sorry for your personal problems over this.

David....
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2006, 03:11:49 PM »

Its a simple matter of copyright.  The fact that the internet has made it easy to copy and reuse images doesn't change the fact that if you didn't create the image you don't have the right to use it.  Most of the time it doesn't matter.  Apparently this time it does.
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2006, 03:22:32 PM »

The circuit offered by Sean could have been created in a 101 course.  But, since he claims it...it was right that you did what you did.

Most of it have it stored in files anyway...and will share it if need be as a .jpg.  But if it makes Sean feel better...that's what's important..our whole society need to feel better.

Without malice.....

NCbob

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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2006, 07:58:02 PM »

I have a question, How does one copyright something?

I didn't see any copyright notices on the odyssey site pages I looked at, so how is one to know what is & what ain't copyrighted??? I also saw no mention of copyright in the first post in this thread.


I thought the copyright was to protect the owner from loss of income caused by others either claiming it as their own or otherwise reducing the value/ income to the owner.



I guess we all better stop passing on information unless we can prove it is our original thoughts or thoroughly documment where it all came from (That was scarcasm for those that didn't notice.)
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2006, 11:02:10 PM »

Found this by googling copyrighting, just FYI (and I'm probably in violation right now.)

derivative work
For copyright purposes, a new work based upon an original work to which enough original creative work has been added so that the new work represents an original work of authorship. Examples of derivative works include a translation of a book into another language, a jazz version of a popular tune and a movie based on a play.

There is more there, but this is where to start looking.

Dale MC8
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« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2006, 12:39:16 AM »

WOW WOW WOW

Did he figure this out all by himself -- WITHOUT "ANY" HELP

Amazing

Must be some kind of secret formula

Thanks for sharing

Melbo
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« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2006, 04:50:52 AM »

I believe that would fall more under a patent than a copywright.

As the holder of several patents, I can assure everybody it takes a lot more creative effort than a simple relay logic diagram to get a patent.

Richard
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« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2006, 06:23:03 AM »

Feel free to put this on your website
« Last Edit: October 30, 2006, 06:27:57 AM by Len Silva » Logged


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« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2006, 06:47:22 AM »

I have a question, How does one copyright something?


The moment you create something new... a photograph, drawing, piece of writing, whatever, you have a copyright on that original work. Now, you can register your copyright with the US Govt. for a small fee, but you actually possess a copyright the instant you create something.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/

HTH,
Brian B.
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2006, 12:00:57 PM »

I have a question, How does one copyright something?
I didn't see any copyright notices on the odyssey site pages I looked at, so how is one to know what is & what ain't copyrighted??? I also saw no mention of copyright in the first post in this thread.
I thought the copyright was to protect the owner from loss of income caused by others either claiming it as their own or otherwise reducing the value/ income to the owner.
I guess we all better stop passing on information unless we can prove it is our original thoughts or thoroughly documment where it all came from (That was scarcasm for those that didn't notice.)

As Brian said, it is not necessary to display a © notice or register anywhere in order to claim copyright.† I can't speak to the US rules but it sounds like they are similar to the Canadian system which is "if you can prove that you created it first then you own the copyright."† You don't have to prove damages in order to have your copyright violated.† In other words, despite the fact that there is no loss of income from someone using your image or written material, you have still been damaged in the eyes of the law.†

Short answer yes, we all better stop passing on written material or images (note: not information) unless we can prove it is ours.
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2006, 01:56:23 PM »

Society is getting way too litigious.

Letís please get real here. Sean was merely asking for proper credit for his work & asked that a link be used to reference his figure/ drawing. Fair enough. I believe he has the right to make that request. Dave was just trying to help answer a question, not take credit for something he didn't do.

I also think itís a good thing that Dave made the request public so we would be aware that this issue exists.

I canít understand the copyright infringement thing. I believe it could be successfully argued that the private work became public when posted on the internet with no use restrictions listed with it.

I think it is GREAT that people are willing to put forth the extra effort to help others like Sean & Dave have done. It is sad that there are people who leave common sense out of it & want to make a bigger deal out of it than is there.

The internet makes it easy to disperse information (or miss-information) & also easy to leave out proper credit where it is due. Personally, I sometimes get carried away & forget to give proper credit. If we are required to give full & proper credit every time we post information, I believe the good information will be harder to find as people will be scared to mention it.

If it had been me, Iíd have been embarrassed that I was reprimanded.

If it had been me, Iíd have been embarrassed that it was taken public & not quite as I had intended.

When Iím embarrassed, I tend to lash out a little.


I hope we all can learn some from this & keep posting great info for all to use.

To Sean & Dave, Please keep up the posting. I learn lots from you guys! THANKS!!!!
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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2006, 05:08:54 AM »

Couldn't have said it better myself, Kyle.

Dennis
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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2006, 06:04:41 AM »

Hmmm, this is just silly to me.† If I hit the 'Quote' button in a post, am I violating somebody's copyright by copying their text?† †Wink
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2006, 06:11:53 AM »

Hmmm, this is just silly to me.† If I hit the 'Quote' button in a post, am I violating somebody's copyright by copying their text?† †Wink

No, there are provisions in copyright law for exactly that situation.  You are however violating copyright if you copy an entire post verbatim with no attribution.  If the copyright holder doesn't want his material used then it is no different than using your bus without your permission.

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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2006, 08:01:07 AM »

My two cents? (or should I call it my "mini flame")

Sean, you're a nice guy but geez give people a break.  This is not rocket science, someone 'violating" your copyright on it is not going to make a million, or even a penny in this instance (isn't that what copyrighting is all about anyway, MONEY?), and for what it's worth it's not even a properly designed circuit because if nothing else you forgot to include catch diodes on your relay coils. (and I know you're better than that)

Giving DrDave trouble for something as BASIC as this...yes to the letter of the law he may be wrong...but sandbox 1A relay logic for gawds sake?, is just plain SILLY.
You should be flattered that he chose to share your "design" with others... get real....
Gary
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Sean
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« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2006, 03:27:18 PM »

How disappointing, to even find this thread over here.

I would like everyone to note that I sent Dave a private email, asking politely for him to remove my image from his web site.  Rather than continue a private dialog on the matter, he chose to publish my email and make the whole matter a subject of ridicule.  He even started this thread, just to do so.  (The original issue arose over a thread on a different board, where he also chose to take the private matter public.)

If you go back and read my private message, you will see that, not only did I encourage him to continue sharing the drawing, I also acknowledged and thanked him for all the help he provides on these boards.  I simply asked him not to publish the image on his own web site.  I don't think that's unreasonable, but, whether or not you agree, it is my right.

Does anyone here really think that I somehow believe this circuit is a new creation?  Any first-year engineering student could come up with it.  I'm certain it's been invented many times before me, and, given our propensity for reinventing the wheel, it will be invented again many times after me.  It is not the circuit for which I claim ownership, but merely the drawing.  Hard as it may be to believe, the drawing was a lot of work.

None of which is my issue -- my issue is protection of intellectual property.  I do not wish to lose the rights to my work, however trivial you may believe it is.   Like ANY author, when I find unauthorized copies of my work, without proper attribution, failure to assert my rights is the first step to losing those rights.  It makes no difference whether monetary gain is at stake (it's not).

As I posted on the other board, I make this drawing (and all my other drawings) available to everyone, for free, simply to give back to this community.  Everyone here may use the drawings as they see fit FOR PERSONAL USE.  If you want to make a copy on your computer, that's fine with me (and falls under the "fair use" doctrine).  If you want to PUBLISH my drawings on your own web site, that's a different matter.  Maybe I'll be fine with it, but I would at least like to be asked, and, in this case, I wasn't.

In a classic case of "no good deed goes unpunished,"  my reward for making all the details of my conversion public is to be castigated in this forum for, apparently, not sharing enough.  (Actually, come to think of it, this drawing isn't even part of my conversion -- it's something I put together in response to a question here on the boards many moons ago.)

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.BlogSpot.com
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« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2006, 03:47:19 PM »

Sean,

I guess what seems so silly is this thing about 'it's my right'.† I'm sure we have a lot of rights, but without reason, why worry about them.† You say that "... you do not wish to lose the rights to your work, however trivial you may believe it is."† I guess it's Dave's right to post what he did, no matter 'how disappointing' you may think it is.† Like Gary said, you do seem like a nice guy, but sometimes specific actions stick out even more when the individual is generally courteous.†

David
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« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2006, 04:43:56 PM »

Sean you have every right to be offended by this thread.† If someone had walked into your open coach and taken it for a joy ride without your permission, picking up a few friends along the way, no one would have questioned your right to be at the very least severely p'd off.† The situation with your intellectual property is no different.

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« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2006, 05:15:06 PM »

†Like Gary said, you do seem like a nice guy, but sometimes specific actions stick out even more when the individual is generally courteous. †

I guess I don't understand this statement. †

I read the original post, and the message Sean sent to Dave, and frankly, I thought he was very reasonable and courteous.

I have a similar drawing on my own webite. It wasn't an original idea, but I did make some modifications and did create the drawing, and yes, it did take me quite a lot of time. As Sean, I make my information available for non-commercial use, but I believe I'd have a similar response if I fould someone hosting my drawings or photos on their own website without having asked permission or given proper credit.

I have a standard copyright and disclaimer on my website. It's kind of like a lock, though. Doesn't keep people from helping themselves. It's only good for the more honest and respectable people. Granting permission is not unheard of, though. Brian Brown has included some of my photos in his own website. He asked permission. I simply asked that he make note of the owner and provide a link to my website.

I've also had certain individuals ask to republish my work on their pay-for-access website. That one didn't make a lot of sense to me, and for obvious reasons was denied.

On the other hand, I did visit David's website, and was not able to find a reference or link to the drawing. I suspect he had made a copy for his personal use, and when someone asked about how to do it, simply offered up the link. †

I've also done similar with certain documents from well known manufacturers, primarily for ease of use for myself, but then it becomes easy to share with others. Technically, it's probably not right for me to do that. †I'll have to be more careful. Maybe I not make the links public.

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« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2006, 05:28:57 PM »

I just hope this is a debate and everybody remains FRIENDS.  Smiley

Good information for all to digest.

Paul
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« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2006, 05:32:40 PM »

Ecclesiastes 1:9 -
The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.



FWIW.

Jimmy
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« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2006, 06:23:04 PM »

†Like Gary said, you do seem like a nice guy, but sometimes specific actions stick out even more when the individual is generally courteous. †

I guess I don't understand this statement. †


It's simple.† Often, when a person seems very helpful and nice, ANYTHING they do that seems petty, silly, trifling, or whatever stands out as not so nice.† That's all. It doesn't mean that Sean is not a good guy or wouldn't help anybody anywhere (he might, I don't know).

And Bobofthenorth, it's not exactly like taking somebody's bus.† One is civil, one is criminal.† One will cost money (fuel, wear and tear, damage) and liability, the other won't.†

I guess that if I sketched something or drew it on the pc and found it somewhere, I really wouldn't care.† It's happened in the past, with credit being given, but not in reference to buses.† I didn't care when it did happen.† It was more like 'cool, that's my sh_t there, somebody else thought it was good'.† Of course, it wasn't on a pay-access site, else that would be different.†

Often, I've seen things published with something like 'this can be freely distributed but remains the intellectual property of X'.† Possibly, something like that could help protect one's property.

I don't mean to sound like I'm defending somebody or attacking another.  I hope it doesn't come across that way.  I've seen such genuine helpfulness and unselfishness among bus nuts that I was kind of surprised at the subject of this thread.  Also, I guess certain things happen in one's life that make most things seem so minor; that's probably why it irritated me so much.
David
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2006, 06:37:37 PM »

And Bobofthenorth, it's not exactly like taking somebody's bus.† One is civil, one is criminal.† One will cost money (fuel, wear and tear, damage) and liability, the other won't.†


Sez who?
http://www.cybercrime.gov/17usc506.htm

It's exactly like taking someone's bus.  People need to understand that IP is the same as physical property.  Subject to the same laws and capable of being damaged the same as physical property.
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2006, 07:01:40 PM »

And Bobofthenorth, it's not exactly like taking somebody's bus.† One is civil, one is criminal.† One will cost money (fuel, wear and tear, damage) and liability, the other won't.†


Sez who?
http://http://www.cybercrime.gov/17usc506.htm

It's exactly like taking someone's bus.† People need to understand that IP is the same as physical property.† Subject to the same laws and capable of being damaged the same as physical property.



OK bob, you call the cops and tell 'em somebody posted your relay diagram and I'll call and tell 'em somebody 'borrowed' my bus.† It's really NOT the same.† Did you even read the link you sent?† Was Dave being fraudulent, doing it for financial gain, maybe the diagram is valued over $1,000, he didn't remove anybody's copyright notice or alter one, etc.† Your link describes CRIMINAL offenses.† That link does contain another link http://www.cybercrime.gov/ipmanual/01ipma.htm.† It indicates that something as obvious as patent infringement is generally not criminal.† I know this is just conversation / discussion, but let's be a bit realistic and practical.

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« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2006, 07:27:02 PM »

Ok,
It's over....
I have always had a disclaimer on my website to inform of potential proprietary matter and how to resolve it.

Sean, You percieved that you were wronged... That was technically incorrect as we have all gone over and over.

I removed the file as requested as per my own statement of content on the disclaimer as a courtesy.

I did not hide, change or multilate your work in any way. Did not profit nor did I use it to increase traffic
to my website. I was trying to help someone just as you do in the same way.

Please, Everyone understand that I at times host and collect many photo's of buses at bus rallies and other places.
I do not attach any requirements, copyright notices or anything to inhibit anyone from using those pictures
aka: Intellectual Property. I offer them any FREE use. Now on the other hand if people want to start playing
lawyer and making claims to pictures of their buses or publicly taken pictures then we all might as well
just fold up shop, dump our computers and cameras and become hermits.

Oh..and:  BobOfThe North why are you being such a jerk? Obviously nothing that I say is correct in your book... Huh Huh

Sean, I have apologized repeatedly but now you won't just let it go away where it all belongs.... Angry Grin Grin Grin

You have not been chastised or injured by all of this, Only your perceptions make you think that you have...

What the heck.. I get flak all the time... I like to share.... Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2006, 07:43:20 PM »

He has an interesting point regarding collection and sharing of photos and such.

I used to download all the interior photos posted on ebay conversion sales for personal reference. Sometimes I share them
with others. I never asked the auction owners if it was ok.

Fine line there.

I guess if I'd done the same, and been asked by the original owner to remove it, I'd have simply done so, appologized, and replaced it with a link to the original work.

I think this has been an important discussion, though. If nothing else, it gives us all some thought as to how we handle the work and content of others and it's not always black and white.

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« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2006, 07:54:11 PM »

Oh..and:† BobOfThe North why are you being such a jerk? Obviously nothing that I say is correct in your book... Huh Huh

I've been called a lot worse names by people that actually know me so I'm not sure where this is coming from - especially since I haven't even quoted any of your posts.  As Craig has pointed out this thread has illuminated an area that most people ignore.  My wife did copyright work for 6 years for our provincial technical education institute so I'm pretty well sensitized to the issue.  And the internet has made it a huge issue. 

Its really very simple.  There is no problem if people freely choose to share original material and explicity give their permission.  If they don't give that permission then it's a copyright violation.  From there it is a matter of degree to determine whether it is a civil or criminal matter.  No one should assume that they have permission to use another person's property.  Whether that property is intellectual or physical.

I don't think we're likely to plough any new ground on this one so I'm out of here - feel free to flame away.


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« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2006, 07:57:52 PM »

So you are saying that every post on the board is intellectual property?
Richard
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« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2006, 09:36:57 PM »

"Sean, I have apologized repeatedly but now you won't just let it go away where it all belongs...."

Umm, OK, I'm confused.

First off, I have received no apology from you whatsoever, either in private or in public.  I'm sorry, but the statement "Sorry for your personal problems over this" in the one email you sent me, and quoted above, does not, in my mind, constitute an "apology".  It's a slap in the face, and you know it.  It's like saying "I'm sorry that you're a jerk" -- it's NOT an apology.

Second, I don't see how you can say that I won't let it go away -- you came over here and STARTED THIS THREAD just to castigate me in public.  I posted one, count 'em, ONE message here to defend myself from the egregious breach of decorum, and you have the unmitigated temerity to tell me that I'm the one who won't let it go away?

I NEVER WANTED THIS DISCUSSION TO BECOME PUBLIC.  I emailed you quietly, privately, and, I thought, courteously.  You, and you alone, chose to try your case in the court of public opinion, with a very obvious and transparent motive of smearing me in some twisted revenge for my simple request, as if you are the one who was, in some way, harmed.

Dave, I never had an ill thought of you.  I presumed, correctly (I hope) that your placement of my image on your site was innocent and an attempt to be helpful.  I presumed that when you posted the link to that image on the other board, you no longer remembered whence it came.  I thought, surely, had you remembered, you would have attributed it properly.  And I thought you would be a gentleman about my request to publish my original link rather than a copy.  Had you simply responded to my email, I'm certain we could have worked something out.  Instead, you chose to get your knickers in a twist and post a rant over here.  Your efforts now to twist it around and make me out to be the instigator are shameful.

If you ever do "apologize," I wonder if you will invest the same effort in spreading the apology as far as you've spread the criticism.

And now, you will get your wish for me to "let it go away."  I have nothing more to say to you.

-Sean
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« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2006, 05:33:45 AM »

E..Gads...

"If you ever do "apologize," I wonder if you will invest the same effort in spreading the apology as far as you've spread the criticism."

Sean,

I have apologized over and over but maybe in not so clear a manor that is acceptable, I apologize.. OK?

This started as an illustrative item only and was not intended to upset you or anyone else. The point was to help
others understand what can happen when images or technical information was distributed by someone other
than the originator and to provide a level of discussion about this type of thing. No harm was ever intended.

I have not attacked you or criticized you publically in any harmful way even though there is some perception that
I did. That was never my intention or point and I am sorry that you took it that way.

I don't know what all this " castigation " business is about or even a clue where that came into the whole picture.

If anything I have suffered a few pot-shots which I may or may not deserve but at least it kept the topic going
and provided food for thought beyond the original issue.

The bottom line is that none of it really matters.

I still admire you for the dilligence and care that you take in your conversion process, Nicely done, Myself compared to many
of the other visitors to the boards actually live my life at a disadvantage as my own conversion projects tend to be a lot more
low-end and use what-ya-got so I can drool over ones done with craftsmanship such as yours.

For anyone else that feels that I have been rude, crude and socially unacceptable, Please accept my apologies..

I do have a tendancy at times to need a pair of hip wader boots since my keyboard gets me into more trouble
than I care to admit. It's funny if a bunch of guys are standing around gabbing nobody would get upset about
things that are said.. Oh.. But let that get typed out and the world gets their shorts in a twist... Odd huh... Shocked

Thanks Again,
David Hartley ( DrDave )
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« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2006, 05:43:25 AM »

So sad to see hurt feelings & people getting p_$$_d off about this.

I have learned alot from this. While bobofthenorth may be technically & legally correct, that's what bothers me the most, an innocent (by ignorance) post can land one in court defending themselves.

This litigation issue is not what I see this issue to be about.

The real focus here should be RESPECT. We all step on other toes unintentionally & we all need to get over ourselves & get back to what makes us happy & life worth living & that is helping out others (Not tearing down).

This busnut hobby is so great because of the free advice & help.

We're all busnuts, so that means we're insane, so that means we're innocent †GrinGrinGrinGrin
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« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2006, 09:48:58 AM »


 Shocked I have been using the NGRI defense for years and if you look it up you will find my picture next to it. Grin


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« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2006, 02:00:23 PM »

Dave,

Thank you for your most recent post.  I accept your apology and hope that it will end any hostility, real or perceived, in this thread.

I do believe the discussion here among all has been instructive.

And, to reiterate for everyone, all the images and text on my web sites are available freely to this community for personal use.  You may view them, print them, download them, and use whatever portions suit your needs.  I hope you will learn something from my experience, including from my mistakes.  I only ask that if you want to include them on your own web site(s), that you do so by linking to them rather than copying them, or consult with me first.  My email address is available on the site.  For use in other ways, for example in a seminar you plan to give, or in a work-for-hire, please check with me first.  And please remember that every web author deserves the same courtesy.

-Sean
http://OurOdyssey.blogspot.com
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