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Author Topic: Series 60 & Allison 4060 tranny  (Read 3180 times)
benneu
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« on: April 05, 2012, 12:13:25 PM »

I have trouble connecting my Jake Brake of the Detroit S60 engine with my Allison 4060 World Transmission. I am supposed to use wire #119 and # 132 from the transmission ECU.  Does anyone have a diagram or knowledge how to hook up these wires.  I had the Jake working correctly when I still had my Allison 740.  On that transmission,  I just used a simple pressure switch on one of the ports.  Any help will be very much appreciated.
Ben
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Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 05:06:02 PM »

If I'm looking at the correct Allison manual (see picture) those number wires have nothing to with jake brakes. I think you will need to control the jakes through the vehicle harness on the engine ECM. Usually the wire numbers for those inputs will be 5** something. You will need the diagram for the original vehicle harness or have DRS "Detroit Reprogramming Software" and interface device so you can see which pins have been activated for jake control. There should be two pins medium and low, they ground to activate, ground both for high. I believe the trans downshift pattern will change if the jakes are on. I think the communication between the engine and trans is over the J1708 or J1939 communication wires. Maybe someone here is more familiar with the Allison interface than me.

Ken
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hargreaves
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 05:22:24 PM »

wire #132 shows a general purpose output from the ecu to a relay . wire # 119 is a switched power wire.
The jake wire you had from the 740 switch is simply grounded when you had pressure to the switch.  To make it work on the WT trans.  use the wire # 132 to a relay to energize it and use the other terminals to connect to ground.  Or you could just find a pressure port on the WT and use the same switch as the one on the 740.  Basically what you are doing is grounding that wire to make the jakes work.

 Good luck,  Gerry
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benneu
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 02:26:39 PM »

Thank you guys for your input.  I did hook up #132 to a relay.  I took 12V from my Jake on-off switch and connected it to wire #119.  I took wire #132 and connected it to a Bosch Type Relay.  When I turn the ignition on, #132 is hot and energizes the relay.  I took the #953 wire from the S-60 and made it go through the relay NC contacts.  So when I start the engine, the circuit of the #953 wire is open.  I drove the bus about 27 MPH and had the Jake on and took the foot off the accelerator, but nothing happend.  The Jake did not come on.  I am just on a small side road of about 550 Feet length.  To test it more properly,  I probably need to take the bus on an open road and get more speed. But I still confused if it is correct that the #132 wire gets hot when the ignition is on.  I thought #132 should get voltage at about 20-25 MPH. I wonder if this is correct.
Ben
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Melbo
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 02:32:52 PM »

When I was trying to figure out my retarder in a similar situation I made an LED console (I used led's because they don't draw enough power to disrupt the function of the circuit) and then connected them so I could tell which circuits were activated at what time in the process of shifting and activation of my retarder and when they were either on high or low.

HTH

Melbo
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Hard Headed Ken
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 02:55:39 PM »

Obviously I don't have the correct diagram for your Allison and I'm not familiar with how it activates the jakes. I'm only familiar with activating the jakes directly through the engine ECM. Maybe Gerrie can offer you some more help.

Here's a link to DDEC III / IV trouble shooting manual, it has the wiring diagrams for the DDEC side.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?it5ob5em53t0w1v

Ken
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 03:34:37 PM by Hard Headed Ken » Logged

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buswarrior
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 03:00:04 PM »

You'll find Bill Gerrie over on BNO.

www.busnut.com

He knows lots about these things.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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rv_safetyman
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 03:52:02 PM »

On my DDEC IV, the low Jake is 979 and the medium Jake is 583.  To activate, these wires are switched to ground as I recall.

Don't know much about the World, but my guess is that it talks to the ECM via J1922 port on the ECM.  If that is the case, you will probably need to have it activated.  I don't think that will affect the Jakes, but it might.  That said, if you have the J1922 activated, your transmission may not be giving the proper communication to the DDEC ECM.

Recall that both cruise and Jakes have to have a set of condition met before they will activate.  The switches for the parking brake, service brake, etc affect the operation of these options.

Like Ken, I think that the Jakes are controlled by the DDEC ECM and perhaps the transmission has to give an input for conditions that will affect proper Jake operation.

Just rambling here hoping that something I say might trigger further thoughts Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
benneu
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 09:02:16 PM »

Hi Jim, have not talked to you for some time.   Jim,  this is Ben Neumann. This winter I redid my entire wiring of the S-60 engine and also the 4060 world transmission.  The reason I did this was to be more in compliance with a factory type installation.  I made it in such a way, that any qualified Detroit Mechanic with knowledge of the electronic engines and  transmissions  would immediately be able to find his way around my bus without me standing next to him and explaining what I did.  Most garages no longer allow you to enter the workshop.  I figured, if a mechanic spends some time to figure out my install, it could cost $1000.00 before any work is done.  My S-60 and the world 4060 is working good in my bus since 2002.  I never installed the Jakes per the Detroit and Allison Manual.  I  had it activated via a speed switch which is operated by my front wheel.  I now want to change and make everything per the book.  My communicating wires are active between tranny and motor.  Every thing works., except my jakes,  after I switched to the new set-up. All my wires on the tranny were activated by Detroit-Allison so that it would match my set-up, which included my jake brake.
Ben
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hargreaves
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 10:58:37 PM »

953 needs to be closed or grounded to activate the jakes. this can be done through a brake switch.  you dont even need any signal from the transmission. Ground the wire and test the jakes. use wire 132 to ground it through the relay.
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rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 08:55:43 AM »

Hi Ben

I am a bit confused.  Did your bus have Jakes before the wiring conversion?  If it did and they worked, I am lost.  If you added them, we need to keep picking away at the problem.

As usual, I am also confused about some of the replies.  My understanding is that DDEC wire codes/numbers did not change from DDEC III on (can't speak for DDEC V).  I am pretty sure you have a DDEC III or IV.  If so, that should be the same wiring as mine. 

Hargreaves, my wiring diagram says that 953 is the common ground for the DDEC wiring.  That is part of my confusion.   As noted in my previous reply my low switch is wired to 979 and the medium is wired to 583.

Ben, as I recall, you have the Series 60 "Application and Installation" manual for your version of the engine.  If that is the case, take a look at the wiring diagram and confirm the wire numbers.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
Ericbsc
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2012, 09:20:31 AM »

My 60 is a ddec IV. My transmission is an allison 4000MHP. It is the same family (world). The communication between the engine and transmission is by j1939 on the IV. The ecm tells the tranny what to do when jake is activated. The didital outputs on the ecm are programable. Mine has a two stage.
 K-2 wire # 583 is eng. brake med.
 K-3 wire # 979 is eng. brake low.

If you have electronis communication between the two no other wires are needed according to my allison manual.

You also need to know which tcm you have. Mine is a genIII.( Between 2001, and 2004 I think).
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rv_safetyman
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Jim Shepherd


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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2012, 10:07:20 AM »

Eric, you are correct, it is J1939.  I am working on another project that deals with J1922 and that number jumped into my feeble mind Cheesy

Your wire numbers are the same as mine and that confirms what Ben should be looking for.

Ben, if you added the Jakes, you will need to activate that option in the ECM.  That is done with a Pro-Link or DD software on a PC.  If you have access to a Pro-Link, you can watch the Jake switches work even with engine off (ECM and diagnostic port must be powered up).  That will help you sort out the issues.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
benneu
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2012, 10:47:30 AM »

Thank you guys for your replies.  When I am talking about the #953 wire, it is the wire coming from the jake on-off switch, going to the terminal of all the other 953 wires, including the one coming from the ECM.  This #953 wire goes over a tranny pressur or speed switch.  If you drive your bus at approx. 20 MPH, the switch will close and the jakes will be operable.  I thought this function of the above described switching would be taken over by the world transmission.  Hargrieves, I have a problem understanding why I should ground wire #132.  My jakes worked before with just a speed switch and without grounding wire #132. Please explain.
Ben   
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Ericbsc
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2012, 05:57:23 PM »

When I turn the jake on my transmission will downshift accordingly. I do know that almost everything on the ecm works to ground to close the circuit. Everything but the cruise on mine in closed to ground to operate. This is what I have:

       ENGINE  INTERFACE
CAVITY   WIRE NO.   LABEL
      
H-3   115   COOLANT LEVEL
D-2   417   THROTTLE
B-1   419   CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
B-3   439   IGNITION
E-1   451   FAN OVERIDE 32
F-3   499   VEH. POWER DOWN
K-1   505   TACH DRIVE
B-2   509   STOP ENGINE LIGHT
D-1   510   VAR. SPEED GOV.
H-1   523   EXT PROTECT
H-2   524   PARK BRAKE
G-1   528   SEO DIAG REQUEST
J-2   531   CLUTCH RELEASE
J-1   541   CRUISE SET/COAST/ON
F-1   542   AUX FAN CONTROL
G-2   543   BRAKE SWITCH
F-2   544   CRUISE ENABLE
G-3   545   CRUISE RESUME/ACCEL
A-2   555   FAN CONTROL
E-2   556   VEHICLE SPEED +
E-3   557   VEHICLE SPEED -
K-2   583   ENG. BRAKE MED
D-3   749   FIRE TRUCK
C-2   900   DATA LINK+
C-1   901   DATA LINK-
J-3   908   PWM #1 OUTPUT
A-3   916   THROTTLE 5VDC
C-3   952   THROTTLE RETURN
K-3   979   ENGINE BRAKE LOW
A-1   988   COOLANT LOW LIGHT
      STARTER RELAY
      GROUND
      
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