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Author Topic: Series 60 & Allison 4060 tranny  (Read 3056 times)
benneu
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« on: April 05, 2012, 12:13:25 PM »

I have trouble connecting my Jake Brake of the Detroit S60 engine with my Allison 4060 World Transmission. I am supposed to use wire #119 and # 132 from the transmission ECU.  Does anyone have a diagram or knowledge how to hook up these wires.  I had the Jake working correctly when I still had my Allison 740.  On that transmission,  I just used a simple pressure switch on one of the ports.  Any help will be very much appreciated.
Ben
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« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2012, 05:06:02 PM »

If I'm looking at the correct Allison manual (see picture) those number wires have nothing to with jake brakes. I think you will need to control the jakes through the vehicle harness on the engine ECM. Usually the wire numbers for those inputs will be 5** something. You will need the diagram for the original vehicle harness or have DRS "Detroit Reprogramming Software" and interface device so you can see which pins have been activated for jake control. There should be two pins medium and low, they ground to activate, ground both for high. I believe the trans downshift pattern will change if the jakes are on. I think the communication between the engine and trans is over the J1708 or J1939 communication wires. Maybe someone here is more familiar with the Allison interface than me.

Ken
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hargreaves
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2012, 05:22:24 PM »

wire #132 shows a general purpose output from the ecu to a relay . wire # 119 is a switched power wire.
The jake wire you had from the 740 switch is simply grounded when you had pressure to the switch.  To make it work on the WT trans.  use the wire # 132 to a relay to energize it and use the other terminals to connect to ground.  Or you could just find a pressure port on the WT and use the same switch as the one on the 740.  Basically what you are doing is grounding that wire to make the jakes work.

 Good luck,  Gerry
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benneu
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« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2012, 02:26:39 PM »

Thank you guys for your input.  I did hook up #132 to a relay.  I took 12V from my Jake on-off switch and connected it to wire #119.  I took wire #132 and connected it to a Bosch Type Relay.  When I turn the ignition on, #132 is hot and energizes the relay.  I took the #953 wire from the S-60 and made it go through the relay NC contacts.  So when I start the engine, the circuit of the #953 wire is open.  I drove the bus about 27 MPH and had the Jake on and took the foot off the accelerator, but nothing happend.  The Jake did not come on.  I am just on a small side road of about 550 Feet length.  To test it more properly,  I probably need to take the bus on an open road and get more speed. But I still confused if it is correct that the #132 wire gets hot when the ignition is on.  I thought #132 should get voltage at about 20-25 MPH. I wonder if this is correct.
Ben
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« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2012, 02:32:52 PM »

When I was trying to figure out my retarder in a similar situation I made an LED console (I used led's because they don't draw enough power to disrupt the function of the circuit) and then connected them so I could tell which circuits were activated at what time in the process of shifting and activation of my retarder and when they were either on high or low.

HTH

Melbo
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« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2012, 02:55:39 PM »

Obviously I don't have the correct diagram for your Allison and I'm not familiar with how it activates the jakes. I'm only familiar with activating the jakes directly through the engine ECM. Maybe Gerrie can offer you some more help.

Here's a link to DDEC III / IV trouble shooting manual, it has the wiring diagrams for the DDEC side.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?it5ob5em53t0w1v

Ken
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« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2012, 03:00:04 PM »

You'll find Bill Gerrie over on BNO.

www.busnut.com

He knows lots about these things.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2012, 03:52:02 PM »

On my DDEC IV, the low Jake is 979 and the medium Jake is 583.  To activate, these wires are switched to ground as I recall.

Don't know much about the World, but my guess is that it talks to the ECM via J1922 port on the ECM.  If that is the case, you will probably need to have it activated.  I don't think that will affect the Jakes, but it might.  That said, if you have the J1922 activated, your transmission may not be giving the proper communication to the DDEC ECM.

Recall that both cruise and Jakes have to have a set of condition met before they will activate.  The switches for the parking brake, service brake, etc affect the operation of these options.

Like Ken, I think that the Jakes are controlled by the DDEC ECM and perhaps the transmission has to give an input for conditions that will affect proper Jake operation.

Just rambling here hoping that something I say might trigger further thoughts Grin

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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benneu
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« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2012, 09:02:16 PM »

Hi Jim, have not talked to you for some time.   Jim,  this is Ben Neumann. This winter I redid my entire wiring of the S-60 engine and also the 4060 world transmission.  The reason I did this was to be more in compliance with a factory type installation.  I made it in such a way, that any qualified Detroit Mechanic with knowledge of the electronic engines and  transmissions  would immediately be able to find his way around my bus without me standing next to him and explaining what I did.  Most garages no longer allow you to enter the workshop.  I figured, if a mechanic spends some time to figure out my install, it could cost $1000.00 before any work is done.  My S-60 and the world 4060 is working good in my bus since 2002.  I never installed the Jakes per the Detroit and Allison Manual.  I  had it activated via a speed switch which is operated by my front wheel.  I now want to change and make everything per the book.  My communicating wires are active between tranny and motor.  Every thing works., except my jakes,  after I switched to the new set-up. All my wires on the tranny were activated by Detroit-Allison so that it would match my set-up, which included my jake brake.
Ben
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hargreaves
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« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2012, 10:58:37 PM »

953 needs to be closed or grounded to activate the jakes. this can be done through a brake switch.  you dont even need any signal from the transmission. Ground the wire and test the jakes. use wire 132 to ground it through the relay.
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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2012, 08:55:43 AM »

Hi Ben

I am a bit confused.  Did your bus have Jakes before the wiring conversion?  If it did and they worked, I am lost.  If you added them, we need to keep picking away at the problem.

As usual, I am also confused about some of the replies.  My understanding is that DDEC wire codes/numbers did not change from DDEC III on (can't speak for DDEC V).  I am pretty sure you have a DDEC III or IV.  If so, that should be the same wiring as mine. 

Hargreaves, my wiring diagram says that 953 is the common ground for the DDEC wiring.  That is part of my confusion.   As noted in my previous reply my low switch is wired to 979 and the medium is wired to 583.

Ben, as I recall, you have the Series 60 "Application and Installation" manual for your version of the engine.  If that is the case, take a look at the wiring diagram and confirm the wire numbers.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2012, 09:20:31 AM »

My 60 is a ddec IV. My transmission is an allison 4000MHP. It is the same family (world). The communication between the engine and transmission is by j1939 on the IV. The ecm tells the tranny what to do when jake is activated. The didital outputs on the ecm are programable. Mine has a two stage.
 K-2 wire # 583 is eng. brake med.
 K-3 wire # 979 is eng. brake low.

If you have electronis communication between the two no other wires are needed according to my allison manual.

You also need to know which tcm you have. Mine is a genIII.( Between 2001, and 2004 I think).
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« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2012, 10:07:20 AM »

Eric, you are correct, it is J1939.  I am working on another project that deals with J1922 and that number jumped into my feeble mind Cheesy

Your wire numbers are the same as mine and that confirms what Ben should be looking for.

Ben, if you added the Jakes, you will need to activate that option in the ECM.  That is done with a Pro-Link or DD software on a PC.  If you have access to a Pro-Link, you can watch the Jake switches work even with engine off (ECM and diagnostic port must be powered up).  That will help you sort out the issues.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
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Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
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benneu
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« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2012, 10:47:30 AM »

Thank you guys for your replies.  When I am talking about the #953 wire, it is the wire coming from the jake on-off switch, going to the terminal of all the other 953 wires, including the one coming from the ECM.  This #953 wire goes over a tranny pressur or speed switch.  If you drive your bus at approx. 20 MPH, the switch will close and the jakes will be operable.  I thought this function of the above described switching would be taken over by the world transmission.  Hargrieves, I have a problem understanding why I should ground wire #132.  My jakes worked before with just a speed switch and without grounding wire #132. Please explain.
Ben   
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« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2012, 05:57:23 PM »

When I turn the jake on my transmission will downshift accordingly. I do know that almost everything on the ecm works to ground to close the circuit. Everything but the cruise on mine in closed to ground to operate. This is what I have:

       ENGINE  INTERFACE
CAVITY   WIRE NO.   LABEL
      
H-3   115   COOLANT LEVEL
D-2   417   THROTTLE
B-1   419   CHECK ENGINE LIGHT
B-3   439   IGNITION
E-1   451   FAN OVERIDE 32
F-3   499   VEH. POWER DOWN
K-1   505   TACH DRIVE
B-2   509   STOP ENGINE LIGHT
D-1   510   VAR. SPEED GOV.
H-1   523   EXT PROTECT
H-2   524   PARK BRAKE
G-1   528   SEO DIAG REQUEST
J-2   531   CLUTCH RELEASE
J-1   541   CRUISE SET/COAST/ON
F-1   542   AUX FAN CONTROL
G-2   543   BRAKE SWITCH
F-2   544   CRUISE ENABLE
G-3   545   CRUISE RESUME/ACCEL
A-2   555   FAN CONTROL
E-2   556   VEHICLE SPEED +
E-3   557   VEHICLE SPEED -
K-2   583   ENG. BRAKE MED
D-3   749   FIRE TRUCK
C-2   900   DATA LINK+
C-1   901   DATA LINK-
J-3   908   PWM #1 OUTPUT
A-3   916   THROTTLE 5VDC
C-3   952   THROTTLE RETURN
K-3   979   ENGINE BRAKE LOW
A-1   988   COOLANT LOW LIGHT
      STARTER RELAY
      GROUND
      
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benneu
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 07:37:15 PM »

Eric, my transmission will down shift into 4th gear when the jake is on and I take the foot off the gas pedal.  There are more wires then just the communication link between the engine and world tranny.  Wire #119 and wire #132 play a role in the DDEC installation when using the world transmission  The reason for this,  certain conditions by the transmission have to be met before the tranny will allow the engine to activate the jake brake.  This is apparently to prevent engine braking when the transmission is in converter mode.  It is not a good idea to operate the jake brake the way I did up to this time.  I should have corrected my installation some years ago.
Ben
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buswarrior
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2012, 07:56:23 PM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Too much, too aggressive, for SOOO many conditions.

Get that bit of programming changed.

Fleets set them up that way to act as brake life extenders, with no apparent consideration for passenger comfort.

I've driven them both ways...

It is very nice to have the transmission react no differently under Jakes, than it would otherwise.

Sometimes Jakes in 6th gear are all you want, and all you need!

If you want the transmission's help, you'll call for it, otherwise, get it to mind its own business!

happy coaching!
buswarrior





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benneu
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2012, 08:52:19 PM »

I know what you are saying.  I am thinking of having it re-programed to use 5th gear.  I think this importend for all Eagle Bus Owners who still have a drop box like the 05 and ten.  That box apparently does not like the back pressure and some people had expensive repairs.  My bus is an Eagle Model ten.
Ben
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2012, 05:30:52 AM »

Pierce Fire Truck, with the Series 50 DD and the 5 speed version of the 3000 Allison, when you get the Jake brake, it down shifts, over revs engine, screws up valve train, Seems this is standard setup.
The Motor Sgt, volunteer, works for me, we have had many talks, seems the local DD shop, for some reason will not change the program. STUPID ??
Guess standard govt waste, everything is free, em ole dumb taxpayers pay for it.

Dave
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2012, 07:42:34 AM »

The coaches I drove that did the 4th gear down shift did not come from the factory that way.

They were re-programmed a few years later.

Funny that the other brand of coach also prevalent in the fleet was NOT re-programmed to these settings.

So, I wonder whose idea it was? Fleet, manufacturer, Detroit..

Some questions never get good answers...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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hargreaves
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2012, 08:33:10 AM »

Ben output functions such as wire #132 are signals sent out by the ECU that activate or control devices. These control devices are controlled by relays or direct connection signals from the ECU.

If you have a Pro-Link you can see what wire #132 switches in your particular application. In the troubleshooting manual it shows wire #132 controls the lock up indicator light on the dash to indicate when maximum engine braking is available. This light would then come on when the lockup clutch is engaged.  Thats all it does is turn on a light. 

 Page P39 in the WTEC 111 trouble shooting manual.

Good luck ,  Gerry
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2012, 08:49:26 AM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Too much, too aggressive, for SOOO many conditions.

I have a Series 60 with B500.  My bus only has 5 speeds enabled for some reason.  It does automatically downshift to 4th when the Jake is used.  It doesn't bother me or my passengers that it does this.  If I wanted to be manually operating the transmission all the time I would have just purchased a bus with a manual transmission.  I will manually downshift the transmission to 3rd on steep downgrades so the Jake works better.  I do need to be sure to downshift early enough before the RPMs start to increase or the transmission won't go into 3rd due to high RPMs.

The real issue with the downshift to 4th is the interaction between the cruise control and the Jake.  If the Jake and cruise are both turned on the Jake will kick in any time the speed increases more than about 1 MPH above the set point.  The problem is the transmission will continually shift between 5th and 4th about every five seconds while the Jake is engaged.  That has got to be hard on the transmission.  All the drivers of my bus know to never have the Jake on while using cruise control.
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2012, 11:53:30 AM »

Mine has 6th gear programed. It down shifts to 5th when the jake is applied. I agree that a 4th would be tough on the drop box.
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2012, 02:33:33 PM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Are you talking downshifting one gear or two gears here?  I was thinking just one gear, but then I remembered my top gear is 5th and normal top gear is 6th gear.

Is it normal to drop one gear, but not two?  I can see how dropping two gears could be bad.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2012, 03:27:44 PM »

Gerry, thank you for your input.  My transmission is a Wtek2 and came out of a garbage truck when I purchased it in 2002.  It was set-up with four gears only for their application.  Before I installed the transmission, I had it checked and reprogramed for my application, which included to activation for the 5th and 6th gear.  They also programed it for a jake brake application.  I was told that #119 would be the input wire and #132 would be the output.  I got a printout to that affect from Detroit Diesel-Allison in San Leandro, CA.  I think my whole problem at this time is that I just don't understand clearly how the tranny and motor work together.  In order to tackle the problem, I think you just have to understand it.  There are all kinds of drawings of the series 60 and also the allison world transmission.  The missing one is the drawing of both of these working together.  It is pretty frustrating being stuck with such a small task which now has become a real problem.
Ben
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2012, 06:24:36 PM »

If you could find the wiring diagrams for a bus factory equipped with a Series 60, B500, and Jake brake that might help.  I should be able to look at my wiring diagrams tomorrow.  I have a WTEC II and a DDEC III.  The factory used the standard Detroit numbers for the wires to the DDEC.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2012, 07:09:27 PM »

Thank you Brian.  I would appreciate very much if you do that.
Ben
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2012, 02:03:23 AM »

I have a WTEC 11 B400. I also have the trouble shooting manual for both. the inputs and outputs are virtually the same. WTEC 111 is faster at computing the information given it by the sensors.. The only thing it really needs is the J1939 wires from DDEC to do its job.  All the other inputs and outputs are for external functions such as retarder, jake brakes etc. If you went through and  read the Application and Installation manual you will get a much better idea how the whole mess works.
 It covers most applications coach and trucks, with Allison transmissions as well as most other tranmissions.


Good luck   Gerry
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »

119 on my diagram goes to A19 on the WTEC.  119 comes from a dash switch to turn the Jakes on/off that is fed 24 volts positive.

132 goes to the coil of a relay in the VIM that has an input 332CM that switches between 332NO and 332NC.  332CM goes to ground.  332NO is not connected and 332NC goes to the low/medium/high switch on the dash.  From the dash switch there are connections to 583 and 979 on the DDEC.

I could take the diagrams to work tomorrow and scan them in and email them or attach the PDFs to a post here.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 05:03:36 PM »

Thank you guys for your input.  I did hook up #132 to a relay.  I took 12V from my Jake on-off switch and connected it to wire #119.  I took wire #132 and connected it to a Bosch Type Relay.  When I turn the ignition on, #132 is hot and energizes the relay.  I took the #953 wire from the S-60 and made it go through the relay NC contacts.  So when I start the engine, the circuit of the #953 wire is open.  I drove the bus about 27 MPH and had the Jake on and took the foot off the accelerator, but nothing happend.  The Jake did not come on.  I am just on a small side road of about 550 Feet length.  To test it more properly,  I probably need to take the bus on an open road and get more speed. But I still confused if it is correct that the #132 wire gets hot when the ignition is on.  I thought #132 should get voltage at about 20-25 MPH. I wonder if this is correct.

It appears that most of the numbers you are quoting match the ones on the wiring diagrams for my bus.  On my bus 953 is the bus bar for ground.  There is no 953 on the DDEC III connector.  If you ran 953 (ground) through the relay to 583 or 979 that should activate the Jakes if A19 on the WTEC also has power.

I cannot guarantee these wire numbers will match your bus, but I do know that the wire numbers for the DDEC are the same as others have posted.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2012, 09:00:15 PM »

Thank you Brian.  I send you an email.
Ben
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« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2012, 01:05:29 PM »

my 8V92 is DDECIII with an HD 4060 and runs 6Th gear. It will down shift one or more gears depending on the conditions when I apply the Jake's. I have had too hit the throttle and or turn off the Jake's a few times because it will overspeed the engine if I am to aggressive on the brakes when decending a hill. My Chevy will do the same thing, it will down shift more then gear if I stay on the brakes to long when in trailer towing mode.

Don
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2012, 06:05:21 AM »

You can program the transmission to down shift to 2nd or 4th on Jake Brake.  Personally-I like all that turned off so I can control the down shifting since many times you just want a bit of Jake.  Besides-how hard is it to down shift an automatic transmission-either pushing a button or sliding a shifter?  Good Luck, TomC
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« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2012, 07:10:04 PM »

I had my tcm programmed to my engine by TKT Transmission. He is an Allison guru I have been told. On the WTEC IV all communication is done using a twisted pair and protocol J1939. I do know that this is available only wtec IV and above. Whit the wtec III down separate wires have to be run between engine, and transmission for some functions. No other wires connect between my engine. and transmission. It down shifts one gear when jake is applied. I would like to have more control over that but on the other hand it slows much quicker with the shift.
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