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Author Topic: Series 60 & Allison 4060 tranny  (Read 3367 times)
benneu
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« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2012, 07:37:15 PM »

Eric, my transmission will down shift into 4th gear when the jake is on and I take the foot off the gas pedal.  There are more wires then just the communication link between the engine and world tranny.  Wire #119 and wire #132 play a role in the DDEC installation when using the world transmission  The reason for this,  certain conditions by the transmission have to be met before the tranny will allow the engine to activate the jake brake.  This is apparently to prevent engine braking when the transmission is in converter mode.  It is not a good idea to operate the jake brake the way I did up to this time.  I should have corrected my installation some years ago.
Ben
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 08:43:12 PM by benneu » Logged
buswarrior
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« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2012, 07:56:23 PM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Too much, too aggressive, for SOOO many conditions.

Get that bit of programming changed.

Fleets set them up that way to act as brake life extenders, with no apparent consideration for passenger comfort.

I've driven them both ways...

It is very nice to have the transmission react no differently under Jakes, than it would otherwise.

Sometimes Jakes in 6th gear are all you want, and all you need!

If you want the transmission's help, you'll call for it, otherwise, get it to mind its own business!

happy coaching!
buswarrior





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benneu
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« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2012, 08:52:19 PM »

I know what you are saying.  I am thinking of having it re-programed to use 5th gear.  I think this importend for all Eagle Bus Owners who still have a drop box like the 05 and ten.  That box apparently does not like the back pressure and some people had expensive repairs.  My bus is an Eagle Model ten.
Ben
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wg4t50
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2012, 05:30:52 AM »

Pierce Fire Truck, with the Series 50 DD and the 5 speed version of the 3000 Allison, when you get the Jake brake, it down shifts, over revs engine, screws up valve train, Seems this is standard setup.
The Motor Sgt, volunteer, works for me, we have had many talks, seems the local DD shop, for some reason will not change the program. STUPID ??
Guess standard govt waste, everything is free, em ole dumb taxpayers pay for it.

Dave
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MCI7 20+ Yrs
Foretravel w/ISM500
WG4T CW for over 50 wpm for ever.
Central Virginia
buswarrior
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2012, 07:42:34 AM »

The coaches I drove that did the 4th gear down shift did not come from the factory that way.

They were re-programmed a few years later.

Funny that the other brand of coach also prevalent in the fleet was NOT re-programmed to these settings.

So, I wonder whose idea it was? Fleet, manufacturer, Detroit..

Some questions never get good answers...

happy coaching!
buswarrior

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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
hargreaves
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« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2012, 08:33:10 AM »

Ben output functions such as wire #132 are signals sent out by the ECU that activate or control devices. These control devices are controlled by relays or direct connection signals from the ECU.

If you have a Pro-Link you can see what wire #132 switches in your particular application. In the troubleshooting manual it shows wire #132 controls the lock up indicator light on the dash to indicate when maximum engine braking is available. This light would then come on when the lockup clutch is engaged.  Thats all it does is turn on a light. 

 Page P39 in the WTEC 111 trouble shooting manual.

Good luck ,  Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
belfert
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« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2012, 08:49:26 AM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Too much, too aggressive, for SOOO many conditions.

I have a Series 60 with B500.  My bus only has 5 speeds enabled for some reason.  It does automatically downshift to 4th when the Jake is used.  It doesn't bother me or my passengers that it does this.  If I wanted to be manually operating the transmission all the time I would have just purchased a bus with a manual transmission.  I will manually downshift the transmission to 3rd on steep downgrades so the Jake works better.  I do need to be sure to downshift early enough before the RPMs start to increase or the transmission won't go into 3rd due to high RPMs.

The real issue with the downshift to 4th is the interaction between the cruise control and the Jake.  If the Jake and cruise are both turned on the Jake will kick in any time the speed increases more than about 1 MPH above the set point.  The problem is the transmission will continually shift between 5th and 4th about every five seconds while the Jake is engaged.  That has got to be hard on the transmission.  All the drivers of my bus know to never have the Jake on while using cruise control.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2012, 11:53:30 AM »

Mine has 6th gear programed. It down shifts to 5th when the jake is applied. I agree that a 4th would be tough on the drop box.
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belfert
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« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2012, 02:33:33 PM »

Yup, an auto downshift to 4th under Jakes is a ROYAL PAIN!

Are you talking downshifting one gear or two gears here?  I was thinking just one gear, but then I remembered my top gear is 5th and normal top gear is 6th gear.

Is it normal to drop one gear, but not two?  I can see how dropping two gears could be bad.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
benneu
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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2012, 03:27:44 PM »

Gerry, thank you for your input.  My transmission is a Wtek2 and came out of a garbage truck when I purchased it in 2002.  It was set-up with four gears only for their application.  Before I installed the transmission, I had it checked and reprogramed for my application, which included to activation for the 5th and 6th gear.  They also programed it for a jake brake application.  I was told that #119 would be the input wire and #132 would be the output.  I got a printout to that affect from Detroit Diesel-Allison in San Leandro, CA.  I think my whole problem at this time is that I just don't understand clearly how the tranny and motor work together.  In order to tackle the problem, I think you just have to understand it.  There are all kinds of drawings of the series 60 and also the allison world transmission.  The missing one is the drawing of both of these working together.  It is pretty frustrating being stuck with such a small task which now has become a real problem.
Ben
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belfert
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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2012, 06:24:36 PM »

If you could find the wiring diagrams for a bus factory equipped with a Series 60, B500, and Jake brake that might help.  I should be able to look at my wiring diagrams tomorrow.  I have a WTEC II and a DDEC III.  The factory used the standard Detroit numbers for the wires to the DDEC.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
benneu
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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2012, 07:09:27 PM »

Thank you Brian.  I would appreciate very much if you do that.
Ben
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hargreaves
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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2012, 02:03:23 AM »

I have a WTEC 11 B400. I also have the trouble shooting manual for both. the inputs and outputs are virtually the same. WTEC 111 is faster at computing the information given it by the sensors.. The only thing it really needs is the J1939 wires from DDEC to do its job.  All the other inputs and outputs are for external functions such as retarder, jake brakes etc. If you went through and  read the Application and Installation manual you will get a much better idea how the whole mess works.
 It covers most applications coach and trucks, with Allison transmissions as well as most other tranmissions.


Good luck   Gerry
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now as of Feb 2012 series 50 B400  . Sunshine Coast British Columbia
belfert
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2012, 04:55:39 PM »

119 on my diagram goes to A19 on the WTEC.  119 comes from a dash switch to turn the Jakes on/off that is fed 24 volts positive.

132 goes to the coil of a relay in the VIM that has an input 332CM that switches between 332NO and 332NC.  332CM goes to ground.  332NO is not connected and 332NC goes to the low/medium/high switch on the dash.  From the dash switch there are connections to 583 and 979 on the DDEC.

I could take the diagrams to work tomorrow and scan them in and email them or attach the PDFs to a post here.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
belfert
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« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2012, 05:03:36 PM »

Thank you guys for your input.  I did hook up #132 to a relay.  I took 12V from my Jake on-off switch and connected it to wire #119.  I took wire #132 and connected it to a Bosch Type Relay.  When I turn the ignition on, #132 is hot and energizes the relay.  I took the #953 wire from the S-60 and made it go through the relay NC contacts.  So when I start the engine, the circuit of the #953 wire is open.  I drove the bus about 27 MPH and had the Jake on and took the foot off the accelerator, but nothing happend.  The Jake did not come on.  I am just on a small side road of about 550 Feet length.  To test it more properly,  I probably need to take the bus on an open road and get more speed. But I still confused if it is correct that the #132 wire gets hot when the ignition is on.  I thought #132 should get voltage at about 20-25 MPH. I wonder if this is correct.

It appears that most of the numbers you are quoting match the ones on the wiring diagrams for my bus.  On my bus 953 is the bus bar for ground.  There is no 953 on the DDEC III connector.  If you ran 953 (ground) through the relay to 583 or 979 that should activate the Jakes if A19 on the WTEC also has power.

I cannot guarantee these wire numbers will match your bus, but I do know that the wire numbers for the DDEC are the same as others have posted.
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Brian Elfert - 1995 Dina Viaggio 1000 Series 60/B500 - 75% done but usable - Minneapolis, MN
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