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Author Topic: I need Heat! For my bus that is.  (Read 4808 times)
Chaz
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« on: November 01, 2006, 06:50:47 AM »

Ok, here is what I was wanting to do:
  Heat the motor- in the winter time 
  Heat the inside floor of the bus (Radient Hydronic)- when it needs it
  Heat the WVO that I want to convert to, so I will be MORE inclined to use my bus more often
  Heat the shower water and sink water also.
 
   Is that a little too ambitious to do using the same system just tying them together in some fashion to be able to turn on what I need, when I need it?? Some being closed loops and some open loops?
   I have heard of a Webasto, or something like that, but haven't been able to find out about them. I even searched the internet and haven't gotten much. What do you guys know??
   
  Thanx in advance! I'll be firing off more soon!!!
    Take good care!
       Chaz
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Nick Badame Refrig/ACC
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« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 06:57:20 AM »

Chaz,

Yes Proheat, Wabasto, or Aquahot. All good methods of diesel fired heat.

I'd be glad to help you design a system for your needs. Just e-mail me sometime.

They are quite simple to install, just some labor, not too bad...

Try  www.aqua-hot.com   or  www.proheat.com

Nick-
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« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 07:10:13 AM »

Or call

Vehicle Systems   David Haines   800-685-4298    x 127

He is very knowledgeable and very helpful too regarding diesel fired systems
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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2006, 07:24:21 AM »

I do all of the above, with the exception of heating WVO. I use an Aquahot and installed infloor radiant heat. It's nice.

Just got my engine preheat loop hooked up this weekend. Measured 22* on the block last night when I got home. The Aquahot was at full temp on electric, so probably 190*. Turned on the pump and it was putting out 65* coolant to the engine.
In 25 minutes the block was up to 47*. It's going to be so nice to be able to heat the engine when camping in below 40* temps (common in high country even in the summer).

You should take a look at the Aquahot system. They're very expensive, but are the Cadillac of heating. You can sometimes find them as surplus or takeouts from wrecked RVs. They're not very complicated, and with your welding skills, you could make your own for a lot less $$$. Used Webasto's can be found for a few hundred $$$.

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« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2006, 07:46:35 AM »

We use an Aqua Hot for bus heat and to heat the 8-92.  On Sunday afternoon at around 0 C or a little lower 1 hour with the heat on and the engine fired on the first turn.  My system is routed with all the radiators & the engine in parallel.  That isn't the best system - I would put at least some of the rads in series.  The way mine is set up, if the engine is in the loop then very little heat goes to the coach because the path through the engine is such a low resistance.  There is a bypass at the engine but I actually close that off when I want maximum heat to the coach.  With the engine running and the valves open it provides lots of heat for the coach.

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« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2006, 07:47:16 AM »

I don't know much about Proheat or Aquahot as they don't sell to the UK, but the two brands available here that (I assume) have equivalent products are Webasto (as you mentioned) and Eberspacher. Both are German companies, but Webasto especially have plants and dealers all round the world, including America (look at Webasto.com).

I have just spent ages looking into diesel heaters myself, and just this week bought a second-hand Webasto Thermo Top C unit (Mercedes take-out) from a guy in Germany. Assuming the parcel arrives as it should I no doubt be posting on the forum soon asking about how best to plumb everything in.

The Webasto unit I have just bought is still in production and is rated as 5kW (17,000 btu I believe), as most of them seem to be; although it is sold for motorhome use I'm not really sure whether 5kw is enough, so I might supplement it with an electric water heater to 'top up' the heat when the generator is running. A few people seem to use solely electric heaters, and of course the vast vast majority of motorhomes (in the UK at least) use gas rather than diesel to provide heating. Electric and gas (propane / butane) heaters being more common are much cheaper to buy than their diesel counterparts, but more expensive to run. I personally wouldn't want to use gas from a safety perspective.

Jeremy
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« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2006, 07:59:37 AM »

When I looked at Aquahot and Hydrohot surplus systems, I found they cost a minimum of $2000.  Too rich for my blood.  The Hydrohot is fairly limited in zones and domestic hot water.  Most busnuts will want the Aquahot that has more capacity.

I bought a takeout Proheat and a water heater with a heat exchanger to build my own system.  I still haven't done anything with the Proheat due to lack of time.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2006, 09:01:52 AM »

We use an Aqua Hot for bus heat and to heat the 8-92.  On Sunday afternoon at around 0 C or a little lower 1 hour with the heat on and the engine fired on the first turn.  My system is routed with all the radiators & the engine in parallel.  That isn't the best system - I would put at least some of the rads in series.  The way mine is set up, if the engine is in the loop then very little heat goes to the coach because the path through the engine is such a low resistance.  There is a bypass at the engine but I actually close that off when I want maximum heat to the coach.  With the engine running and the valves open it provides lots of heat for the coach.



Curious why it's set up that way.  The Aquahot I have has a separate loop through the tank for the engine preheat. Sounds like yours doesn't have that?

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Craig Shepard
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« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2006, 09:42:52 AM »

Message me at russbarnes........at......mindspring....dot......com (take out periods).  I have two new Proheat 45,000btu units that I'd sell.  They're made by Teleflex, (check out their website), newer design that Wabasto and came out to heat over the road trucks for warm sleepers and preheated engines.  They'll do everything you want.
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« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2006, 09:43:08 AM »

What they did on mine was set up a lines running the full length of the bus with one line out from and one line returning to the Aqua Hot.  Then they ran radiators and the engine preheat "across" the legs of the loop.  It's not a real good layout but it would be hard to change now.
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R.J.(Bob) Evans
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« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2006, 10:16:37 AM »

What they did on mine was set up a lines running the full length of the bus with one line out from and one line returning to the Aqua Hot.  Then they ran radiators and the engine preheat "across" the legs of the loop.  It's not a real good layout but it would be hard to change now.

Yeah, that seems bizarre since the standard Aquahot has an engine preheat loop in it that is separate from the interior heating tank and system. It's just a small exchanger inside the tank that's connected into the engine. Keeps the two systems separated.

Did they do that so you can heat the interior off the engine while driving without having to run the Aquahot burner?

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« Reply #11 on: November 01, 2006, 10:32:16 AM »

I am leaning toward the Hurricane system; see Miss August 06. I saw one running at the Seattle Boat Show with the exhaust about 7 feet above their booth, no diesel smell and almost no nosie. They have a 5 section controller; I am thinking bedroom, bathroom, kitchen/living room, dash heat and basement.
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Chaz
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« Reply #12 on: November 01, 2006, 11:04:03 AM »

Quote
When I looked at Aquahot and Hydrohot surplus systems, I found they cost a minimum of $2000.  Too rich for my blood. 

OUCH!!!! Shocked That was one of the things I did not know! OOOOOWEEEEEEE! Well, I guess I will have to really start looking around or getting creative. (I've been known to do that)  Wink

Russ, I guess I would be interested in one of the ones you have. Although from what I read so far, I better set down when I go to figure up all that I need to do and cough up for a system like that.

I'm all new to this so I am VERY grateful for all the input.

Nick, what would you need me to do for you to help on the design??

  Thanx again guys!
     Chaz
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« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2006, 12:09:50 PM »


OUCH!!!! Shocked That was one of the things I did not know! OOOOOWEEEEEEE! Well, I guess I will have to really start looking around or getting creative. (I've been known to do that)  Wink


Absolutely, diesel water heaters are an expensive business - in fact in the UK diesel AIR heaters will cost you more than $2000, with water heaters being a lot more than that. So, your best bet is a take-out OEM diesel heater from a truck or whatever, or either gas or electric heaters which are considerably cheaper. Another option (although I'm not sure I dare say it) would be solid-fuel - there are modern solid-fuel stoves on the market for canal boats etc that will also provide hot water for all the things you need. The downside is the chimney through the roof that makes you look like a hippie (nothing wrong with being a hippie you understand, but you might get thrown off campsites).

Jeremy

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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2006, 02:16:01 PM »

Quote
The downside is the chimney through the roof that makes you look like a hippie (nothing wrong with being a hippie you understand, but you might get thrown off campsites).

LOLOLOL Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
 I resemble that remark!!!!!!!!!!!! LOLOLOLOL Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy But I think I will have to forgo the solid fuel.  Smiley

I had no idea the heaters were that expensive, but at least I have something to go by now. It would be nice to find a used one or a "good deal". Either way, it's something I would like to do.

Now that I think of it, I recently bought a car wash that I am no longer using as a car wash and there are two instantaneous hot water heaters in there. Hmmmmmmmmmmm, something I may have to look into. But they are kinda big for a coach.

Chaz
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« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2006, 02:29:56 PM »

Chaz,you can buy used proheat units from Nimco(800-526-8055)I just ordered mine,Talk with Nick at nimco and he can help you out,$400.00 plus shipping,hard to beat and alot of the guys are getting these to set up there heating systems.they have 24 or 12 volt and 45,000 btu  Mike
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belfert
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« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2006, 04:19:09 PM »

Does Nick have 24 volt Proheat units now?  I requested 24 volt and got 12 volt.  I thought it was a mixup, but I called and Nick said he only had 12 volt in the Proheats.

Nimco's units are takeouts and may be a little rough on the cosmetics, but they are guaranteed to work.  I will probably sandblast and paint the case on mine before installation.  I would highly recommend these units as the price is good.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2006, 04:38:51 PM »

Did they do that so you can heat the interior off the engine while driving without having to run the Aquahot burner?

That could explain it.  The bus was converted in Canada - ie. it was built for cold weather. 
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« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2006, 05:02:06 PM »

Here's few others to consider as well.    http://www.lubricationspecialist.com/index.php?cPath=8_36&osCsid=3eece523a941fdb958adb68e25d28cc5

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« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2006, 05:21:38 PM »

Chaz,
     I'd suggest that you give Dick Wright, at Wrico International, a call at 541 744 4333.  He sells all the pieces needed to make whatever you want in a Webasto based heating system.  It is desirable to have a seperate 'coolant' loop for the engine and a heat exchangerbetween the loops and seperate pumps to pump the coolant in each loop.  Domestic hot water is usually heated by a water tank with another heat exchanger built in and an electric element also.  These systems can preheat the engine  and draw heat from the engine while driving.   I don't have the radient floor heating but use 6 fan coil heat exchangers.  Not a triviial installation as there are lots of bits and pieces to plumb and wire together. 
Regards
Jerry 4107 1120 
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« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2006, 06:37:05 PM »

Chaz,

Maybe try and give me your thoughts on the layout and primary use of your bus, then we will start there.
As far as use, primary region of use, Camping or just travel, winter or just summer use, ect.

Nick-


Quote
When I looked at Aquahot and Hydrohot surplus systems, I found they cost a minimum of $2000. Too rich for my blood.

OUCH!!!! Shocked That was one of the things I did not know! OOOOOWEEEEEEE! Well, I guess I will have to really start looking around or getting creative. (I've been known to do that) Wink

Russ, I guess I would be interested in one of the ones you have. Although from what I read so far, I better set down when I go to figure up all that I need to do and cough up for a system like that.

I'm all new to this so I am VERY grateful for all the input.

Nick, what would you need me to do for you to help on the design??

 Thanx again guys!
 Chaz
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« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2006, 07:34:34 PM »

Used take-outs are the way to go for your diesel fired water boilers.

Every modern transit and coach has one to keep the motor at emissions friendly temps. Check the transit scrap yard.

mike H8H is right, $400 and up depending on condition.

happy coaching!
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« Reply #22 on: November 02, 2006, 10:54:04 AM »

Thanx Warrior!
  Nick said he may be able to help me find one and help with the system design. One of the other busnuts, Steve from Indy, said we do have a "boneyard" here in IN. I may see what they have.
  Have a good one!
     Chaz
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« Reply #23 on: November 02, 2006, 05:36:45 PM »

Nick,
  Thanx for taking the time!!! I am trying to keep up with all this writing/emailing stuff and I think I am a little behind.  Undecided
  I'm in Indiana so heat is a GOOOOOOOD thing. I was wanting to use it to warm the motor, run radient hydronic heat in the floor, heat the water out of the faucet and heat WVO. I will be using the bus for long weekends and short runs (comparatively) for now, but I want to ultimately be able to do 3 months in it at a time in the future.
  Am I asking too much of one unit??? Should I do other systems as well?
  I talked to a cousin of mine (trucker) and he said the unit would be very expensive, not able to handle it and wear down my batteries. He said were he works, they had allot of trouble with Proheat. And they now use something called........... dang............. shoot.............  Angry....... ummmm, something "6" maybe?Huh Sorry, I'll post it when I find out.
  Anyway, I am open for suggestions and how to go about it.
  Thanx for the help!!!!!             (I can use it!!  Smiley)
     Chaz
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« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2006, 12:19:40 AM »

Hey Chaz

Pro heat, or Webasto are good units and will do all you need. or spring for the big bucks and get the caddy Aquahot.

A good battery bank will keep you going 3-4 days without charging or powerpole.

You'r on the right track.

Bill
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« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2006, 05:08:50 AM »

Chaz, to get proper heat, you need two things. Fuel and power to run the blowers, pump(s) and ignitor. You must install a proper set of batteries and a charger to keep them topped off. I used to have to run my genset every day or two for a couple of hours to keep the batteries charged. Just part of the cost in obtaining proper heat. I would think that hydronic heat would be very inefficient as another pump would have to run most of the time to circulate the water thru the piping in thr floor. I personally think that is not a good way to go and is not really needed.
Richard
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« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2006, 05:45:23 AM »

Does anyone have location ideas for here in Los Angeles for a transit yard or such? I am interested in this pro heat thing. Just trying to save on shipping etc..

Thanks,

Paul
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« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2006, 07:27:57 AM »

Does anyone have location ideas for here in Los Angeles for a transit yard or such? I am interested in this pro heat thing. Just trying to save on shipping etc..

Transit Sales International is in Riverside.  They may have some takeout heaters.

The transit authority for Los Angeles probably has parts buses and may have some takeout heaters to sell.  Of course, transit buses in Southern California may not be equipped with auxiliary heaters.  Some government agencies will not sell smaller parts likes heaters simply because they don't want the liability in case something happens later.  Lawyers love to sue government agencies.

Brian Elfert
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« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2006, 10:56:32 AM »

"I'M SOOOOO CONFUUUUSED"!!!! Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked  lolol
 

  Man, I guess I have been looking for too many opinions.  Wink Dang!!!!!!!!!! I did find new Webasto's locally for 2100.oo and then 175.oo for the thermostat. I think I will look at the used ones I have been told about, but I have been told some real horror stories about the different auxiliary heater brands.
  I guess I still want more info from you folks tho, since I really just don't know. What are the pros and cons??? Which ones will do the best job? I understand they are not all the same and 45,000 btu is "marginally enough".
  Sorry if I'm wearing you guys out on this, I just like to do it right.
  Many, many thanx!!!
     Chaz
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« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2006, 02:41:27 PM »

45,ooo btu is more than adequate for temperatures down into the teens at least, if not more.
Richard
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« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2006, 07:07:32 AM »

Chaz the thing to consider with a used webasto every thing that usually needs replacement is $350.00 and up  Coil,  contoller,  circulation pump. makes the new unit more attractive as from what I understand you can get 10 plus years of trouble free operation.
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« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2006, 07:35:32 AM »

Thanx Paso,
  I am kinda seeing that.  Undecided  But I have found a couple "rebuilt" units for a good price too.
     Decisions, decisions........  Huh   Wink Wink Wink
 
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« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2006, 06:57:56 PM »

Anybody heard of these??   http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/water/hydro16.htm    Just curious. A diesel mechanic friend of mine told me to check them out. As usual, I'm looking for opinions.  Wink  I value them!
  Noone had mentioned them yet, so I was thinking maybe they weren't any good or worth it.
  Thanx
    Chaz
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« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2006, 08:37:30 PM »

I have an Espar 42k BTU unit that came with my bus.  I'm changing / adding to make my heating system.  I had the unit serviced before I started so I know it works well.   Very similar to the Webasto, but quieter.  There may be take out units available somewhere.  I would not hestitate to use one.
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« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2006, 01:34:03 AM »

Anybody heard of these??   http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/water/hydro16.htm    Just curious. A diesel mechanic friend of mine told me to check them out. As usual, I'm looking for opinions.  Wink  I value them!
  Noone had mentioned them yet, so I was thinking maybe they weren't any good or worth it.
  Thanx
    Chaz


Espar is simply the US trading name of the Eberspacher brand I suggested earlier. I guess they figured 'Eberspacher' sounded too German for the American market.

Jeremy
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« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2006, 07:06:28 AM »

Quote
I'm changing / adding to make my heating system.

So, are you saying yours with a 42k btu isn't big enough?Huh Just curious. I did not quite understand. I do understand they are quieter.
 
 Jeremy, with a name like Kaiser (mine!) Eberspacher is not to German for me!! LOLOLOLOLOL Grin

Thanx!!!
    Chaz
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« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2006, 08:14:21 AM »

To be honest, I'm not sure if th 42 k is big enough, but all the experts assured me that it's plenty.  I also live in southern california, and in the 3 years I've had the bus, I have not really needed heat. I do not intend to camp below freezing if I can help it, altough we all know there are things beyond our control when we travel.

Even when boondocking at 40 degrees.  Campfire, down jacket, flannel sheets and down comforter, I've been just fine.  So I'm pretty sure 42k BTU will be more than adequate.

Its also important not to get one too large for your needs as it will cycle too often.
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« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2006, 05:44:48 PM »

Chaz...

40 000 BTU or there abouts is fine for what a busnut usually does.

I have a big Webasto at 100 000 BTU, up here in Canada.

Mine burns more fuel, but it warms things up right quick from stone cold sub zero.

Good if you have no patience, good if you leave the coach cold and come back to it at the ski-slope, good if it is arctic temps, Bad for fuel consumption, and bad in moderate temps where it does cycle more than the smaller BTU models.

Perhaps most importantly, it came in the bus, so no decisions for me to make!

You are looking for "good running take-out" The nozzles in the Webasto, I am told, are regular oil burner nozzles, buy 'em from your furnace contractor, not Webasto. Only maintenance it really needs is open it up once in awhile and clean out the soot and put in a fresh nozzle once a huge amount of fuel has gone through it. And check the gap and condition of the sparker points.

happy coaching!
buswarrior
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Frozen North, Greater Toronto Area
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