Bus Conversions dot Com Bulletin Board
August 30, 2014, 01:21:50 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: If your computer is lost, damaged, or stolen, we will replace all of your E-Mags for free.
   Home   Help Forum Rules Search Calendar Login Register BCM Home Page Contact BCM  
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Problem wiring Linning two speed fan clutch  (Read 2695 times)
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« on: May 31, 2012, 10:22:14 PM »

I am currently helping a friend with the installation of a S-60 engine and Allison World Transmission.  Both motor and tranny came out of an 1995 Provost.  We got the wiring diagram for this type of fan clutch from the Prevost CD and even checked with Prevost tech support.  Still, the fan is not working when using the Prevost wiring diagram.  The tech actually told us to switch one wire on the low speed fan, but it did not fix the problem  We are using wire # 555 for the low speed and wire # 563 for high.  At this time the fan comes on immediately after starting the engine.  We have been told that is wrong and the fan is not supposed to come on before reaching 204 degree.  Also, at 210 degrees, the high speed fan still did not come on. If any one could shed some light on this problem and really understands this installation, help would be very much appreciated.  The 563 wire I found was in a harness of three wires, 563, 564 and 565.  I found this engine harness a few inches above the right side of the ECM.  It had a dead plug installed and looked to me as if it was never used.  I wonder were else I can find wire #563.  It is not at the ECM.
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2012, 04:41:52 AM »

You probably know this, but just in case. If your using the factory Prevost clutch it's 24 volt. Don't activate the fan directly with the ECM outputs, use relays. When the ECM turns on the outputs they go low (become grounds).

Ken
Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2012, 08:13:17 AM »

Thank you Ken.  The installation is into an Eagle Bus with 12V power.  We used a DC Converter to convert 12V  DC to 24V DC just for this two speed fan clutch.  The switching is done using 12V relays.
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 03:10:27 PM »

Ben,
 I just got to my shop and I'm looking through the DDEC III / IV application / install manual.  Wire 555 is from the Vehicle side harness, 563,563,and 565 are outputs from the Engine harness side. In the repair manual 563, 4 and 5 are listed as sensor harness. All of these are called digital outputs in the A&I manual. That means the outputs are selectable using DRS (Detroit Reprogramming Software) and can be programed for different functions for different vehicle manufactures. That's why the A/I manual doesn't give their functions. Since the engine is from the bus it's most likely programmed correctly. The only way to know for sure is with the DRS software or maybe the harness diagram for that bus. If you have the VIN for the original bus you should be able to get the diagram on Prevost's website. I looked in another DDEC ECM program I have from a Prevost about the same year as yours. It has the low speed switching on at 195 F and on high at 203 F.

Are you able to activate the fan by manually grounding the relay coils?

Ken
Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 04:54:58 PM »

Thank you Ken.  Yes, when I ground the relays high and low will come on.  The problem is, that I am not getting a signal from wire 555 or 563.  I wonder if it is time to go to Detroit and have the ECM tested and have them give me a print out of all wires and their function.
Ben
Logged
stevet903
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 204




Ignore
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2012, 07:01:26 AM »

Do you have the serial number of the bus that the engine came out of?  I was looking at the wiring diagrams online, and it looks like the early 1995 buses did not use the outputs from the ECM for the fan clutch.  The diagram shows a 3 pin water temperature sender (doesn't say, but probably on the engine) with one pin going to +24V on a 16 gauge wire 24-290.  The other two wires are 16 gauge and labeled 24-291 and 24-292 which go to the low and high speed on the fan clutch.
This is on wiring diagram D060815 rev 95-03-15  Later revisions show the fan clutch using the DDEC outputs. 
Steve
Logged
luvrbus
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12306




Ignore
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 08:02:52 AM »

Most of those have been re programed to work off the ECM the sensor for the fan wasn't a good idea,Ben I thought you were home taking care of the orchards lol it's getting hot in Yuma George will probably leave fan or no fan

good luck
Logged

Life is short drink the good wine first
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2012, 07:47:52 PM »

Steve, thank you for your reply.  I think you are right.  I ask myself several times: why did the engine harness plug have a dead plug in it.  We only have a partial Vin # of the bus.  Apparently it got burned and only a portion was readable.  I would appreciate if you could guide me to find the drawings you are talking about on the internet.  I sure would like to look at them.
Ben
Logged
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2012, 09:06:50 PM »

Clifford, I got back from Yuma about three weeks ago.  I had to go home before we were able to test the bus because George still had to finish a few mechanical problems with the install.  I am talking to him daily and trying to figure out some of the problems he is still having.  One of them is the Linning fan clutch.  Also his cruise is no working.  I was looking at the print out from Detroit Diesel and it shows his VSS Signal to be "Switched".  At my S-60 the signal is magnetic.  I wonder if that is the reason the cruise is not working. It was 107* when I left.  George was reporting temperatures between 112 and115*last week.
Ben
Logged
Boomer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 647





Ignore
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2012, 09:13:43 PM »

Silly question Ben, but I presume George has a ProLink and has enabled cruise?  Also, is the vehicle VIN in the ECM data?  Not sure about DDEC III.  I hope George is taking it easy in that heat and not getting too stressed out.
Logged

'81 Eagle 15/45
'47 GM PD3751-438
'65 Crown Atomic
Vancouver, WA USA
stevet903
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 204




Ignore
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2012, 04:57:59 AM »

Prevost's wiring diagram web site is frustrating to use, so here goes...
To get to the main menu, go here:

http://prevostparts.volvo.com/technicalpublications/en/wiring.asp

I chose vehicle type as an XL-40 and year of 1995, then click search.

A panel of results comes up -in this case it comes up with one result - D060811 - and click on it.
A new panel of results comes up - I pick the last result because that should incorporate all of the changes for the 1995 model year.
In this case I click on the last item, the 7/15/1995 Update. It brings up a new panel of results - pick the FAN-CLUTCH RADIATOR
and you should finally get the wiring diagram you are looking for.

Steve
Logged
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2012, 09:34:37 AM »

Thank you Mark.  No, George does not have a Pro-Link, but he took the ECM to Williams  Detroit Diesel In Phoenix and got a printout of his engine calibration and it shows VSS enabled, cruise enabled, cruise auto resume disabled, cruise VSG disabled and cruise engine brake enabled.  Also it shows VSS Type to be tail and VSS Signal as "switched". His ECM had the 30 pin connector witch supplies all the end users DDEC feature's like Cruise and Jake removed for some time and it showed corrosion.  George cleaned and inspected all the pins of the ECM but so far with no success.
Ben
Logged
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2012, 09:43:44 AM »

Mark, I just noticed I only answered part of your question.  The Pro-Link for DDEC ||| will not give you the ViIN ", only the model and serial # of the Detroit Motor and the serial # of the ECM.
Ben
Logged
Boomer
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 647





Ignore
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2012, 07:22:15 PM »

Wasn't sure on the DDECIII Ben, I only had IV and V and you could enter info like unit number and VIN via the DDC Diagnostic Link software.  Try checking with Eric Brown on the Eagle board, he had a ton of trouble getting his cruise and other configurations figured out, but he did and might have some valuable info.
Logged

'81 Eagle 15/45
'47 GM PD3751-438
'65 Crown Atomic
Vancouver, WA USA
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2012, 07:56:26 PM »

George has been talking to him.  Apparently he had a bad ground on the brake switch (953 wire)
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 03:59:31 PM »

Thank you Mark.  No, George does not have a Pro-Link, but he took the ECM to Williams  Detroit Diesel In Phoenix and got a printout of his engine calibration and it shows VSS enabled, cruise enabled, cruise auto resume disabled, cruise VSG disabled and cruise engine brake enabled.  Also it shows VSS Type to be tail and VSS Signal as "switched". His ECM had the 30 pin connector witch supplies all the end users DDEC feature's like Cruise and Jake removed for some time and it showed corrosion.  George cleaned and inspected all the pins of the ECM but so far with no success.
Ben


Ben,
 The dealer should have been able to give you a print out of how the selectable pins were configured. It would give you pin locations instead of wire numbers but that's all you need. The attached picture is from a DDEC V It very similar to DDEC III & IV just the pin descriptions are different. DDEC II does not have fan control.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 04:12:24 PM by Hard Headed Ken » Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 08:59:13 AM »

Ken, thank you for your reply.   We got a print out from Detroit Diesel but I am having a hard time understanding what I am reading.  Prevost shows they are using wire 555 and 563 from the engine harness. That is the way we installed it.  I have the print out from Detroit and wonder if you could take a look at it and be able to see if all the wires we need are really active.  If you don't mind doing this I will email you the print out using the email address of your profile.
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2012, 10:47:21 AM »

Just use the address in my profile and I'll be happy to take a look at it.

Ken
Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2012, 06:13:21 PM »

Mark, I was wrong when I suggested that the VIN # is not in the Pro-Link DDEC III, I was wrong.  I just installed my Pro-Link and found it on my S-60.  The reason I never noticed , when Detroit Diesel programed my engine they entered my name and not the VIN #.  I just contacted George, he has a Pro-Link from a friend  and should be able to retrieve it if it ever was installed.
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 01:06:28 PM »

Here's the pin connector locations from your print out from the Detroit Dealer. The connectors are viewed from the front (pin side). First thing is make sure you are using the correct wires and there is continuity form the pin to the end of the wire . A2 location on the Vehicle is fan control and W3 on the engine side is fan control. It seems strange that one fan control is on the vehicle harness and on is on the engine harness.  F1 is for the fan over ride switch, when you ground this input it activates the fan #1 control no matter water temp. Let's go from there on your Fan problem. I put up some pictures of the programmable I/O's. As you can see there are several that the vehicle manufacturer  can chose the function. Study the pictures and let me know what you think.

On the Cruise / Jake problem I noticed pin J2 is programed for a clutch switch. You don't have a clutch, right?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/DDEC%20Fan/Eng%20side.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/DDEC%20Fan/Programable%20pins%20Engine%20side.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/DDEC%20Fan/Pin%20Out.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/DDEC%20Fan/Programable%20pins%20Vehicle%20side.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/DDEC%20Fan/Vehicle%20side.jpg
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/76663175/TShoot.hlp

The DDEC III/IV trouble shooting manual is the last link. It has the wiring diagrams.

I'll probably be away from the computer till about Sunday.

Ken
« Last Edit: June 08, 2012, 01:13:06 PM by Hard Headed Ken » Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2012, 09:37:45 AM »

Ken , thank you for your input.  I just got the word from my friend and he grounded J2 and both the jakes and cruse are now working.  I have no idea for what reason someone activated the clutch function.  This is an original engine and transmission of a 1995 Prevost XL model bus. But any way, the problem is fixed and we are now have a happy bus owner.  Thank you again for your time and knowledge.
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2012, 11:18:14 AM »

Glad you got it going. Did you get the fan controls working?

Ken
Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
benneu
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 22




Ignore
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2012, 08:46:56 AM »

Ken, I have been away from home for a few days.  To answer your question, the answer is no.  I think I know what the problem is, we probably need to ground  the F1 wire of the ECM, but have not done it yet.  At the moment,  I am trying to convince George that the Lining Fan Clutch is the wrong clutch for his application on an Eagle Bus with a 12 Volt power supply.  We had to install a voltage converter from 12 to 24 Volts.  My worry is, this converter is a small electronic device and needs to be installed in a cool place.  In the back of that Eagle bus there is no cool area.  Because of this, there is a great potential for  this converter to fail.  If it does, the fan will completely stop and  the engine will overheat within minutes.  This can happen any time, even in the middle of winter when you hardly pay any attention to your engine temperature gage.  I like to see him install a Horton two speed pneumatic fan clutch instead.  If those clutches fail, they stay in high speed mode till the problem is fixed
Ben
Logged
Hard Headed Ken
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 309


1988 Prevost Angola Conversion Repowered With 14L Series 60 & Eaton Ultrashift


WWW

Ignore
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2012, 12:58:36 PM »

If your printout is like Georgeís when F1 (Fan over ride) is grounded A2 or W3 will be grounded. I canít remember if FAN CNTRL 1 or 2 is high, I think itís 2. Itíll be easy to tell, ever which one is grounded when F1 is grounded.  On Georgeís print out I think E1 is for an air conditioner input, it's for turning on the fan when the A/C is switched on. Tricky thing is that it needs to be disconnected / ungrounded when the A/C is on, so it usually needs to be controlled through a relay. If E1 is what I think it is the fan will always be locked up unless E1 is grounded. The logic is that if there is a circuit failure the fan would be on which of course is better than the alternative. If you use a ProLink or DDL to monitor the fan control status it will show ďFan Control OffĒ when the fan is engaged and ďFan Control OnĒ when disengaged. In other words "fan control on" is keeping the fan off. Clear as Mud?Huh



This is why I decided to use a 2 speed Horton (not saying it's right). I occasionally stop by Hemphillís here in Nashville to see a friend and I always check the scrap pile out back. There is usually about a dozen Prevost fan clutches in the pile and Iím reasonably sure they are the Lining brand. I could not find anywhere to buy any bearings or other parts for those clutches. Now, to be fair Hemphillís has maybe 80 or 100 entertainer coaches on the road. So thatís probably a low failure rate. Bearings and clutches are readily available for the two speed Horton clutch I used. The Hortonís low speed is driven by opposing magnets and is not a direct drive and runs at about half speed (according to Hortonís Tech line). My thinking is that the charge air cooler most always needs air flow even in the winter, the exception maybe on deceleration or idle. I also think the engine compartment always needs some air flow, it gets really hot even with the fan on. This fan is locked on high without air pressure, applying air pressure unlocks the friction disc and allows the magnets to drive the fan. Another advantage of this system is that a vehicle with the radiator on the side is constantly cycling the fan. If the fan is already running at half speed itís much easier on the fan clutch and drive mechanism when it engages, instead of having to accelerate the fan from a dead stop to engine RPM.

Hereís what I think are 2 downsides the Horton clutch.

The fan I used has no bolts or other means of locking up the clutch if the friction disc fails.  

There is no off on the clutch I used. It would be nice to be able to disengage the fan at times, but the option is not there on this fan
« Last Edit: June 18, 2012, 07:17:49 PM by Hard Headed Ken » Logged

Link to my engine swap slide show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxAFFBcoTQI
rusty
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 351





Ignore
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2012, 06:18:17 AM »

Ben/ George, Sam Caylor in Kansas was a big help to me on the Horton clutch. I stopped and picked up a clutch, angle box, and driveshaft from an MCI.( I think it was an E model). I got all the parts because they are tested on the MCI and I am not sure the Eagle angle box will stand up to all that shifting of the fan clutch. The angle box is made by Hub City ( a 600 series ) but MCI had hub city but tapered shafts on the box. When MCI did that it took the price of the box from around 600 (for straight shaft) to 3000+ for the Same box with tapered shafts (now an MCI part )

Wayne
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!