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Author Topic: Need Help DDEC II  (Read 2628 times)
Sam 4106
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« on: June 10, 2012, 07:19:27 AM »

Hi all,

We are at a rest area just north of I-29 and Hwy 34 near Glenwood in western IA.   We have an electrical problem with the DDEC II .  It started with the cruise kicking out and progressed to not having any throttle.   These problems are intermittent, but I don't feel comfortable continuing with this situation.   Bus is a 1976 MCI 8, with 8V92 TA with DDEC II and 740 Allison transmission (non-electronic).   Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.   

Thanks
Sam
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1976 MCI-8TA with 8V92 DDEC II and Allison HT740
hargreaves
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2012, 08:03:45 AM »

Does your bus have a throttle cutout when a door is open?. This could  be the cause.   Cheers  Gerry
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Brian Diehl
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2012, 08:07:08 AM »

Sam,
Have you tried going through all the connectors from front to back disconnecting them and reconnecting them?  Start with the wires feeding the front controls from the computer in the back.  Then pull apart the connectors on the computer and re-seat them.

Just some ideas ...
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2012, 08:12:25 AM »

Sam, sorry to hear about your issue.  

I would give very strong odds that you have a computer electrical connector that needs to be cleaned/re-seated or a bad system ground.  Like the later DDEC version, DDEC II uses wire 953 as the "ground" wire for all switches/controls.  I don't think 953 is attached to the bus ground system, rather it is a DDEC system ground.

Try removing each plug from the ECM and then reattaching.  Do it several times.  If you have contact cleaner spray it on the connectors.

OOPS, Brian and I posted at the same time.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2012, 08:14:37 AM »

Probably dirt build up at the roller and rail on the TPS blow it with air then it should be good to go
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2012, 09:52:43 AM »

Hi all,

Update:  I found a couple of loose screws on a terminal block under the dash.   I didn't think they were loose enough to cause a problem, but we decided to try again and within a short distance the throttle kicked out 3 times.   After that it seemed to work fine for several miles around 1500 rpm.   I increased the speed to about 1700 rpm and we traveled for 50 or 60 miles before the throttle started kicking out again.   We were within sight of a Rest area when the engine stopped completely.   After a minute or two, the bus restarted and we made it to the rest area.   I have checked the connections in the rear electrical panel for the engine and found nothing loose or corroded.  There are some other terminal blocks in the front electrical panel that I will check next.   There are also some terminal blocks in a junction box on the right side of the engine that I will check.   
I have checked the roller on the throttle.  There is not any dirt built-up.  The roller turns freely and there is no dirt on the pad.  Thanks for all the help.   I will update again if I find anything.   

Thanks
Sam
PS:  any other suggestions would be appreciated.
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Sean
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2012, 11:44:15 AM »

...   I have checked the connections in the rear electrical panel for the engine and found nothing loose or corroded.  There are some other terminal blocks in the front electrical panel that I will check next. 

Sam, the connections you need to check are at the DDEC unit itself, not in the electrical panel.  The DDEC box is mounted to the top of the engine and should have a fuel line going to it (how the computer is cooled).  There are two connectors on the side which are dogged down with 1/4" bolts.  Loosen the bolts, pull each connector, clean with contact cleaner if you can, then reconnect and tighten the bolts.

-Sean
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2012, 12:38:56 PM »

The TPS could also be bad.  Gerry
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2012, 12:45:43 PM »

Did you check the connector coming from the TPS?   Cheers , Gerry
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2012, 01:01:46 PM »

Hi guys,

I removed all the connections from the ECM and saw no corrosion as well as checking all the connections that I could find. We drove another 20 or 30 miles without incident, but then had the same problem again.  I can get the throttle to respond by letting up and reapplying it.We made it to another rest area (the only places we have computer Wi-Fi) I don't have any contact cleaner but we are only 10 miles from Sioux City,IA So I may be able to get some in the morning. I am going to remove the connectors Sean suggested again to see if we can get to a campground for the night. Wish us luck.


Gerry, yes I checked the connector at the TPS if that is the one at the throttle petal.


Thanks for the help, Sam
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2012, 01:06:24 PM »

sounds more and more like you have a bad TPS sensor.  Cheers Gerry.
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2012, 03:35:33 PM »

Sam do you have a reader like a Pro/Link if the TPS is bad I seem to remember you need one to read the code 21 or 22 on a DDEC 11 it won't flash on a early model DDEC 11
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2012, 04:30:40 AM »

I have the exact same problem on my DDEC II.  After trying all of the suggestions here (and more), I finally found out what is going on - heat.  Is it hotter than usual where you are traveling?  Mind starts acting up when it is over 85 degrees out and it runs for a while (it usually takes a couple of hours).  It seems that the ECM gets heat soaked and kicks it out of cruise control, and then doesn't respond to the throttle.  After you pull over and it cools down it will run for a while again.  To se if this is the problem, get a towel, soak it with water and put in on top of the ECM.  I've found that it will run fine until the water evaporates, then it will act up again (just keep wetting the towel!!)  Seems that the cure for this is a new ECM..... 

Steve

PS, Make sure you don't have an exhaust leak in the area of the ECM that could be heating it up...
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2012, 05:36:45 AM »

I also had the same problem, but on a DDEC III.    I limped to the Detroit Diesel shop in Canton, Ohio, where they could find no problem.   So, I had them change the throttle position sensor.   That problem has not reoccurred.

I also had other intermittent problems.   As Sean suggested, I removed the connectors from the ECM and sprayed them with electrical contact cleaner.   I also applied a SMALL amount of dielectric grease to the contacts.   This corrected the intermittent problems completely.

The problem will get worst.   If you have to be towed or pay a shop, it will be much more expensive than the $100 or so for a new TPS.

Good luck

Ed Roelle   eight one zero, five one six, nine eight eight eight
Flint, MI
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Sean
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2012, 09:33:02 AM »

Sam do you have a reader like a Pro/Link if the TPS is bad I seem to remember you need one to read the code 21 or 22 on a DDEC 11 it won't flash on a early model DDEC 11

FWIW, I have a DDEC reader and we're in the Sioux Falls area for a week or two.  I'd be happy to lend it to you; it's a short drive from Sioux City.

-Sean
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2012, 06:18:06 PM »

Hi guys,

Sorry for not getting back until now. We got a can of contact cleaner and cleaned all the connections at the ECM and at the TPS. We are at Interstate Diesel in Sioux Falls now waiting for an ECM. It should be here in the morning. We got about 30 miles north of Sioux Falls this morning before having problems. Cruise kicked out and no throttle response until I let up on it and depressed it again. It was 59 degrees. We stopped at a rest area and decided to return to Sioux Falls since we had seen a sign for them. On the trip back to Sioux Falls the bus ran without incident. They got us in the shop about 1:00 PM and hooked up a reader, getting a lot of codes. From that they decided to put on a test ECM and take a test drive. We only went less than a block and had almost no power so we returned to the shop. A little digging determined that the test ECM was for a 6V92. They claimed that the only way to tell that was to try it. That seems hard to believe. Anyway the only alternative they offered was to order an ECM. We will see in the morning if that solves the problem.

On another note I discovered this morning that our belt drive alternator has a bad bearing. It was singing really loud. So I will have them remove it to see if it is just a bearing as I suspect. If it is more than a bearing, I will have them leave it off until we get to Dickinson, ND and have it repaired there. The ECM is powered from the house batteries so I think I can drive all day. Or, I  can run the generator to keep all of the batteries charged.

Sean, thanks for the offer of the reader. If I had read your message earlier I certainly accepted your offer. My, you sure do get around.

Thanks for all the help, Sam
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2012, 08:39:59 PM »

Are they really sure the ECM is bad, or are they just throwing parts at it?  Your problem doesn't seem to be consistent so a new ECM may start acting up a few hundred miles down the road.
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« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2012, 12:00:12 AM »

I would throw a new TPS sensor at it before an ECM. It is very unusual that an ECM would cause that problem.  The TPS sensor is an easy swap. Two screws on the side of the throttle pedal.  If you hook up an MPSI reader you should see the throttle counts go to zero when the incident happens. 

 Cheers Gerry
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« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2012, 10:57:59 AM »

Just got through the same situation.

Three things you might add to your diagnostics

1 - Does the cruise work without any problem or does it also drop out on occasion?
2 - Does the problem only occur after you have been running for 30 minutes or more?
3 - Is it getting progressively worse, like it only happened rarely a few trips ago, but now is becoming more consistent?

I replaced my TPS, and the wires from the TPS to the computer. Neither fixed mine. It ended up being the DDEC ECM.

Answers
1 - If the cruise works without a problem, then it is most likely the ECM
2 - Heat build up within the ECM (driving time) causes components in the ECM to become intermittent.
3 - Increased failures means that it is more a computer component failing than an outboard component (TPS, wiring, etc.)

Hope this helps???
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Sam 4106
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2012, 09:23:25 AM »

Hi guys,

The problem is solved, a reconditioned ECM was the solution. We were treated very well at Interstate Detroit Diesel in Sioux Falls, SD. They made a stressful situation a little less difficult. They worked us in to a busy schedule to diagnose the problem, had a mechanic that had worked for Jack Rabbit Bus Line since 1976 until they closed and now works at Interstate in the same shop, and let us stay in their lot overnight

with a 20 amp cord to keep the batteries charged. They got the ECM overnight and installed it by noon. We took our bus on a test drive while they had lunch and got us on our way after that. Even though the bill was hard to swallow, $2537.16, their shop rate at $102/HR was in line with other shops. One hour was for checking another item. I wish we lived nearer to Sioux Falls so I could seek advise from their mechanic as needed.

We are now in Hettinger, ND city campground preparing to go to an RV rally about 30 miles from here this afternoon. Hopefully the rest of our trip will be without incident.

Thanks for the advise and help, Sam
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Iceni John
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2012, 01:59:35 PM »

From that they decided to put on a test ECM and take a test drive. We only went less than a block and had almost no power so we returned to the shop. A little digging determined that the test ECM was for a 6V92. They claimed that the only way to tell that was to try it.
If/when some of LA's and Rialto's buses like mine are scrapped, would it be worth it to buy a used DDEC II from them as a spare for my bus?   Will any DDEC II for a Californicated 6V92TAC like mine work on any other 6V92TAC, or do they each have to be individually set (programed?) to a particular engine?   The reason I'm asking is that a DDEC failure is not something I can bandaid to get home, so having a spare may be a good idea.

Thanks, John
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« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2012, 07:37:43 AM »

Not totally sure, but many ECM units are programmed to the engine. They may be interchangeable, but not act exactly the same.
But having a spare to at least get the bus home and not stuck on the side of the road is very worth considering.
Glad you got it fixed.
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« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2012, 08:28:02 AM »

For sure, there can be significant differences between software in the ECMs.  When I replaced my failing Series 60 engine with a newer version, I put the first engine ECM on the"new" engine and beat my head against the wall trying to get it to run properly.  Turns out that DD changes the MAP sensor (detects boost) and my old unit was programmed for the old GM type sensor.  When I changed the ECM (correct one for the engine), everything worked fine.  Lest you think me stupid Roll Eyes, I used the original ECM since it was programmed for the AutoShift communication and I was afraid the "new" ECM was not.

The best solution is to find a spare ECM and take it to DD (or one of the "black market" folks) and have your software installed on the spare ECM

Ran into the same problem on my transmission ECM.  The spare unit was programmed for a different set of gear ratios and it would not work.  Had it reprogrammed by the Eaton rep and it now works fine.

BTW, if you have a DDEC II there is a DD conversion kit for upgrading to DDEC III/IV ECM.  The PDF I have says the part number is 18SP546.  That does not look like a DD part number to me, but the data sheet lists that number.  It says it is for an upgrade for Series 60, but I bet it would work for 92 series as well.  I would think the DDEC III/IV ECM would be more robust and easier to find.  It does not have fuel cooling.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2012, 09:34:11 PM »

Jim I wonder if you might be able to email me that bulletin.  I inquired at my local DD distributor about changing to DDEC III from II on my 6L71TA.  I reasoned that a 6V92 or 71 ECM might work.  They said no dice.  Can upgrade a III to a IV though, but assume that is S60.  Pittsburg Power can reconfigure mine though.  Thanks.
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« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2012, 12:30:32 PM »

Mark, I had meant to send you that bulletin after our discussion at the Cody Eagle Rally - sorry.

The last email address I have for you is at "airspd", is that still current?

I had hoped to upload it to Photobucket, but it is a PDF, so could not do that.

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
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Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2012, 04:11:24 PM »

That's it Jim.  Thanks.
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2012, 05:50:30 PM »

Mark, PDF sent.

I had not spent much time looking at the 8 page document.  Lots of details, including how to add three sensors.

As I said, it is listed for Series 60 engines, but I can't think of a reason it  (or the information contained in the document) would not work on your 671 if you have/can locate the computer resources to reprogram the ECM.

I would like to follow your progress on this conversion. 

Jim
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Jim Shepherd
Evergreen, CO
85 Eagle 10/Series 60/Eaton AutoShift 10 speed transmission
Somewhere between a tin tent and a finished product
Bus Project details: http://beltguy.com/Bus_Project/busproject.htm
Blog:  http://rvsafetyman.blogspot.com/
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2012, 06:42:04 PM »

I bought 2 new DDEC III ECM's from Crane Carrier in Tulsa for the rh 6L71 you should be able to find the III for the lefty the firing order is different on the 6L71 from the series 60 even with both being inline 6 cylinders it's the way the DDEC sends the firing order.

The DDEC III's I have the firing order is 352415 I think Cole told me the lefty engines fire 263514 and the 60 series fires 153624 I have no idea what he is talking about I just told him to make it work for a lefty 

I found 1 at a marine shop and he wanted a small fortune for it so we went another route
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« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 02:27:12 PM »

Clifford, I need to get ahold of cole would you mind shareing his contact info with me. I need several ECM's reprogramed and DDC wont do it any more.  Help

Thanks

Don
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« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 06:24:40 PM »

Clifford I assume the 6L71 ECM's are marine, correct.  Can't feature a lefty industrial.  If you communicate with Cole can you ask him where I can find a III for me.  Thanks.
Mark
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